To think it doesn't always start at home?

[BePoliteOpalQuail]

I have recently been supply teaching in different schools for a month.
Many lovely, hardworking and studious kids, quite a few who try it on with having supply teachers.
Some who spoke to me like I was something they'd stepped in, even at the age of 11 and 12 which is concerning.

I just wonder more and more where this comes from, as it was concerning. I went to seek support from another classroom and a 12 year old girl scowled at me 'Look at you, just stood (standing) there.

I would ask troublemakers to move seats and some would pretty much laugh in my face and say 'erm, nope'.

I asked a 13 year old to put their phone away and they said 'Are you dumb or what? I'm not on it. Are you gonna stop going on at me now?'

Further examples. Or if I gave them a sanction or had them removed some of them would literally shriek at me 'What have I done! I haven't even done anything! What the fuck, you're a joke!

I have been out of teaching for a while but was astonished to hear the complete lack of respect. I know supply teachers are usually regarded as not 'proper teachers' by kids, but I just never remember it being this bad.

There is absolutely zero respect for teachers and adults. A real level of contempt from them if you dare to ask them to do anything, and a lashing of abuse.

Some people will say this starts at home. It may do sometimes, but not for all of them?
What's the solution to behaviour like this?
Each time, I told them firmly to never speak to me, or anyone, in that manner ever again.

The immaturity of these little shits a lot of them learn it from their parents pampering/babying them but some copy other kids.
Then they think they can get away with everything because they're young. I had a child at 16 and moved out of the family home, only took one gap year before going back to college and was shocked at how disrespectful the other students were to the tutors. Non stop talking and then moaning about their "human rights" whenever the tutor asked them to be quiet or getting their mummies to complain lol

So even at college age it just gets worse 😂

They did in my school, especially to supply teachers. The behaviour at my kids' secondary school is actually loads better than my school (both comps in deprived areas).

I think it is more complex than just "it starts at home." That most definitely plays a role but I know kids with nice parents who do care about their behaviour but still behave badly in school. As teenagers peers start to have more influence and parents less. So then there is the aspect of school culture. What we permit we promote. Too much poor behaviour is let slide by teachers who don't have good behaviour management skills. The more they get away with the more they try it on and the harder the good teachers have to work to maintain minimum standards.

In terms of peer influence it doesn't take many disruptive pupils to tip a class into chaos. Once a few are behaving like that others join in because they think it is fun, or safe because the more disruptive students will be the ones that get consequences, or because they want to be seen as cool or need to maintain their reputation etc etc.

As a secondary TA I work with multiple teachers and it is astonishing how differently the same class can behave with different teachers. It takes a lot of skill and experience to manage behaviour well and not all teachers have that skill. As it gets harder to recruit teachers, standards are slipping, and new teachers are coming in that really can't cut it. They last a few years then get burnt out and leave the profession to be replaced by the next unprepared young starter. It's not fair on them and it's not fair on the students who want to learn. SLT need to be more proactive about spotting teachers who are struggling with behaviour and supporting them to develop those skills.

I always think teachers would benefit from some time working as a TA before going into teaching. It's a great way to observe what does and does not work!

Also, pupils with extremely poor behaviour should not keep getting shuffled from one mainstream school to the next. It never works. For every difficult child moved on from our school we get a new one in their place. They need some specialist provision. Mainstream clearly isn't working for them and they definitely aren't helping things in the schools.

Too large a school, and kids trying to be “cool”.
Poor program options for many teens. After the basic math/english (and there should be a function skill course available early on at secondary) trades should be available options from grade 10.

Yep it’s starts at home .

It starts at home. I’ve never heard a parent raise their voice to their child when out yet and I seem to make most kids jump out their skin if I shout at mine to stop doing something. I want my kids to have a healthy fear of the consequences at home if they disrespect a teacher at school but I suspect I am in the minority.

My kids were at the cinema watching the Minecraft movie together a few days ago and a whole row of teens had to get thrown out for shouting and spoiling the movie for everyone else, throwing bags of popcorn around and full water bottles (one hit a smaller child)

Dc said the abuse the staff got was terrible for telling them to leave. They offered to help clear up at the end of the movie and the staff replied that they appreciated the offer but they have this to deal with for the next month due to some TikTok trend around the Minecraft movie.

A few of the parents of the children who were thrown out were demanding a refund for their children's tickets when my lot were leaving

Well then it’s got nothing to do with child-adult hierarchy has it? The issue is clearly with the mother not wanting to be made uncomfortable (with a child on her knee) and not the 3 year olds lack of manners/ failure to be taught that adult’s (lesser) needs come first above hers. Presumably mum would have been more willing if there was someone else who actually needed the seat.

Absolutely a three year old should take priority- they are far less able to stand/ more at risk of losing their balance/ hurting themselves than an able bodied adult. I would never expect a small child to give up their seat for me- how awful!!

I lived and worked in Fife. On social occasions, when people asked where I worked and I replied that I was a teacher, I'd get men in particular boasting about playing 'pranks' on their teachers and making them cry.

It definitely starts at home.

When I was a child - as @Maray has said - a 3 yr old would be expected to sit on their parent's knee.

I left my last school nearly 25 years ago and pupils there behaved like that.

When I was that age, in the late 80s and early 90s, I wouldn’t have dared speak to a teacher or any adult that way. I’d have been scared to death of facing my mum, who would’ve been ashamed that I’d behaved that way.

Completely different now. A lot of parents think the sun shines out of their kid’s arse.

I wouldn’t be a teacher in secondary school for all the riches in the world.

A three year old should sit on the parent’s knee.

I agree it is not purely down to the home environment. The area a child grow up can have a big effect on their behaviour.

I would not ask a three year to move but I was as was raised a similiar way to posture you quote. I think it did teach me to respect others.

Yes it begins at home in the vast majority of cases imo. I've been a teacher for decades and was a supply teacher for a while and experienced plenty of shocking behaviour. I now work in a lovely girls' grammar school with very few behaviour problems. I will never go back to a school with difficult behaviour. I'm done with tolerating it. Nobody should have to put up with contempt, disrespect and bullying in the workplace.

You think it's awful for a 3 year-old to sit on their parent's knee? Because that's what the poster said. Nobody is suggesting a 3yo should stand on publuc transport, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

It surely must start at home.
When I was a teenager, I knew that if my parents got wind of me being naughty/rude in school, there would be consequences that impacted my life (grounded/privileges removed etc).
Children who behave atrociously in school clearly aren’t worried about that, so it either doesn’t happen or they don’t care if it does.
I left teaching 7 years ago. No amount of money would persuade me to go back.

Not wanting to start a private/state debate here but I supply teach in both. There is a massive difference so maybe looking at that can give clues why some children turn out like that.

I would say that in private you get one of these characters in some years but they usually don’t last long as they are expelled pretty sharpish. Without exception, their parents have been disengaged, never attend parents evening, complete and open access to the internet, no bedtimes, often did badly at school themselves etc. But there is always only really one so they have no others to bounce off and egg them on - they are very much the misfit. And that is because the majority of parents at private school are very much engaged with their child (often to the point of being pushy) and value education to the point of paying thousands for it. They don’t want to waste their money by having a child who pisses around so the majority come down heavily on any bad behaviour.

Over at the state achool you have at least 5 or 6 of these children in each class. It’s practically impossible to expel them (if you do, you get more in their place on managed moves) so there’s always a group of them. Parents are the same - disengaged, lazy, often uneducated etc. But the key difference is that there are so many of them. Across a school there’s 50-100 of these disruptive pupils and that makes the difference. They are no longer the single misfit and their behaviour becomes more normalised. They then become bolder in their packs.

Absolutely no idea what the solution is other than parenting classes or making parents more liable for their child’s behaviour.

Bu you aren’t. You are singling out a tiny child and his parent because you are equating using a seat with the appalling behaviour described in the post. How do you know what disabilities everyone in the carriage had? How many apparently able-bodied adults were sitting and could have offered a seat? (That’s right, you don’t know. Just like you don’t know about the child or its parent.)

And FWIW my child and I will always offer a seat to someone who may need it more, but the entitlement in the post above is breathtaking.

I was surprised when I invited 4 of DS friends round when they were 7 or 8. None of them had any table manners, no please or thank you (which I would consider absolute basics for 5+) they threw food, back chatted, got under the table at meal times, messed around etc.
I would not have considered behaving like that at home or at a friend's house. And I'd be appalled if my own kids behaved like that. (Several parents have commented how polite my own DC are at their houses)
We live in a MC area, all the parents seem nice (one set are too cool for school types) and the kids went to an oversubscribed outstanding school....but I'm not sure that really makes a difference....
But a lot of the interactions I've had make me wonder how they behave at school.

BTW my own DC refer to supply teachers as subs, I presumed for substitute teacher

If they have a lap to sit on then they’re fine and they learn that it’s the decent thing to make room for someone else if they can.

DD once asked me why she had to sit in my lap. “Because people are tired from a long day at work.” “But I’m tired too.” “There’s a difference between being tired after an afternoon frolicking at Grandma’s and being tired after a day at work. And you have a seat, my lap.”

The end.

I would and have done, shuffle my 7 yr old around to make space for an adult to sit on a train/similar.

All four of my children (3 of which are now adults) show respect to others, whatever the setting.