To think it doesn't always start at home?

[BePoliteOpalQuail]

I have recently been supply teaching in different schools for a month.
Many lovely, hardworking and studious kids, quite a few who try it on with having supply teachers.
Some who spoke to me like I was something they'd stepped in, even at the age of 11 and 12 which is concerning.

I just wonder more and more where this comes from, as it was concerning. I went to seek support from another classroom and a 12 year old girl scowled at me 'Look at you, just stood (standing) there.

I would ask troublemakers to move seats and some would pretty much laugh in my face and say 'erm, nope'.

I asked a 13 year old to put their phone away and they said 'Are you dumb or what? I'm not on it. Are you gonna stop going on at me now?'

Further examples. Or if I gave them a sanction or had them removed some of them would literally shriek at me 'What have I done! I haven't even done anything! What the fuck, you're a joke!

I have been out of teaching for a while but was astonished to hear the complete lack of respect. I know supply teachers are usually regarded as not 'proper teachers' by kids, but I just never remember it being this bad.

There is absolutely zero respect for teachers and adults. A real level of contempt from them if you dare to ask them to do anything, and a lashing of abuse.

Some people will say this starts at home. It may do sometimes, but not for all of them?
What's the solution to behaviour like this?
Each time, I told them firmly to never speak to me, or anyone, in that manner ever again.

Soaps on tv seem to have families that are child-led with child characters who speak to parents in an appalling manner & said adult just rolls their eyes and puts up with the behaviour.
Children DO NOT rule households and should be made aware of this.

The senior management team at a blame for this my daughter was a supply teacher very recently had a Mercyside school.

She was slammed into a wall which caused a break in her hip by a 13-year-old girl.
No first aid was offered to her, she was not given the accident book to register the incident. Agency doesn’t want to know.
And this was all in front of a member of the senior leadership team who then put her into a classroom with the same kid.

Three times she telephoned reception for help because she wasn’t given any other means of communication. Three times she was ignored.
At the end of the lesson, she walked out and forfeited the half a day pay

Too much is said in front of children, nowadays. Private and personal stuff which would have been discussed when the children weren't about.

I’ve worked with young people for many years and have always maintained that parents are the biggest influence. However I’m now of the mind that the internet is overriding this. I think we underestimate the influence that the internet has on young people and on toddlers via their parents. It’s huge and incredibly concerning.

Mostly from their own peers, they watch the behaviour & the response & copy. They speak to their parents in the same manner

I work in a regular state secondary school. Most of our students are regular young people. Mostly polite and tolerant of each other and us. Minority have extreme behaviour problems, many of them have either no parents or parents who have a huge and completely inflexible problem with normal school rules. Like don't talk when the teacher is teaching. Don't leave the classroom during a lesson.
We have banned literally dozens of parents from school site for verbally or physically abusing staff in the last few years. One parent made threats against a staff member because we gave her child a bag whilst sitting outside the medical office in case she was sick again.
Clearly some people in society are unable to accept any form of authority, and they obviously pass this on to their children. It's quite sad really these kids don't know how to interact normally with their peers and often have no friends and become sad or angry or both as they get older.

If some people had their way then no they wouldn’t.

The difference with parents making the decision is they will often view their child as more vulnerable than others, even another child of the same age. It’s nature. I’m not saying it’s necessarily deliberate. Parents are programmed to look out for their own. So while a parent may tut at a random 12 year old not standing, it is DIFFERENT for their child because THEIR child is more tired etc.

The random old person isn’t the parents problem in their eyes. Their child is more important so they should sit.

It mainly starts at home but with a degree of peer pressure to look cool. But whatever the reason it seriously needs stopping. It’s not a new problem, it was happening when I was at school in the 80s. I was a bright child but just quietly gave up trying to learn as classes were dominated by kids fooling around, showing off or mocking those that wanted to learn. The lack of consequence for bad behaviour seems to be the problem and this really hampers the learning of other kids and makes it an impossible, horrible situation for teachers. Whatever the reason it needs to be addressed, otherwise we’re just paying lip service to educating our kids and providing a safe, secure place for our teachers to teach.

Firstly, as a fellow teacher, I am sorry you have experienced this behaviour. No one should have to put up with widespread and constant poor behaviour.

I do think home has a lot to do with it - many parents just do not believe their child can possibly do wrong and don't support school, so kids learn they can get away with it. As an example, at my school recently, some students had been messing about in a local shop and a member of the public complained. Two students owned up to the Head and were given sanctions- cue complaining parents!

I do think school systems and SLT support also make a huge difference. My previous school now has widespread poor behaviour- largely because the support from SLT is woeful and they just leave teachers to deal with it alone. At my school, behaviour is excellent overall - and this is a school in a very deprived area! The reason is partly our routines that are well embedded but also the fact that every single person takes responsibility for behaviour, including the SLT, and teachers are supported. The head is extremely visible and doesn't shy away from dealing with behaviour- even fairly minor things she picks up while out and about.

We have some complex children but the systems and pastoral support we have mean that they are supported to meet the expectations.

Why is my 12 yo god daughter less entitled to a seat than you?

As to the PP equating children to bags, you are literally the problem - your entitlement screams off the page.

You can stay in denial if you want.

No, how has the school management allowed it get this far.

They should use harsh punishments from the off.

My DC school is not perfect, but it is strict on the rules, you use your phone, it is confiscated for 3 days, speaking to the teacher rudely will get you in isolation.

The school had local store managers in to discuss that hanging around intimidates some customers etc.

Children and teenagers are like sponges, if the general attitude around them is rudeness and destruction they'll follow.

I get some schools are more difficult, my school inner city was a jungle, though it had a massive turnaround in the later years when a new principal took over, again fantastic leadership turned it around.

One teacher alone cannot solve the problems that are rooted.

Perhaps, but it is parents who control (or should) access to the internet.

Do any of them, though?

I put parental controls on but a) it was really difficult and b) some of it is our router at home so I am not even sure if it works when mobile is using data / wifi etc and c) there’s just so much crap I think stuff still filters through… it’s also just normal telly/ads etc. so much is designed to shock and people are inured to stuff that we would have thought was cheeky or rude years ago. I’ve definitely seen it shift throughout my lifetime.

Lack of hope? It definitely doesn’t come from that.

We used to walk back a couple of stops so that the kids (from 2 to school age) got a seat at the back of the bus. Safest place is bums on seats. Yep, that applies for everyone, so some negotiation is needed for those less able, but I'd stand before making my kids stand. Sitting on a bus for safety does not make kids "entitled".

Coincidentally, youngest is now teacher training (science, secondary) and loves it... as she says, it's currently like grandkids - you can hand them back at the end of the lesson.

She certainly knows which schools she'd prefer and has landed a job in a good one, though we live in an area with generally lower behaviour issues.

@PaperSheet Some of the teenagers have never travelled by bus and don't know the etiquette.

I used the bus regularly with my DC and always offered my seat, like my mother taught me, DD always offers her seat to a person who is struggling, she learned from me.

If we had travelled by car, she may not think it was a thing.

When I went to a really rough London school in the 70’s we were all badly behaved for supply teachers. But the bad behaviour didn’t include talking to them in such a disrespectful manner, it was more talking too much, throwing things to each other etc. I think the reason for this is, that if we had behaved in the way the OP describes our parents would have been informed and we would have had a massive bollocking, and we were all scared of that.

When I was at school if you misbehaved you'd be dreading going home because you knew you'd be in trouble. It was unusual if your parents didn't back up the teachers.

There's a lot of neglect going on. Tooth brushing, diet, toilet training, lack of discipline, unrestricted access to the internet.

Instead of being out in the fresh air and getting exercise, children are cooped up in their rooms on tech watching God knows what. No wonder they all seem to have anxiety.

Didn’t say me. This is about giving up seats to older/disabled people. (And to be honest you have no idea if I’m disabled or not)

But here you go @Lostcat , this proves my point, a 12 year old is more entitled to a seat than anyone else. They will never have been told to stand for anyone less able because they are just as entitled to it as anyone else.

I live in the lakes and I’ve witnessed similar, the town I live in has a huge drug problem and I hate going to supermarkets in the evening alone because of the kids congregating outside, they are young but genuinely scary.

My DP was a taxi driver and he had so much trouble with teens, drinking or trying to smoke and take drugs in the car, he had a knife pulled on him and many a time they would try to run off without paying. He went to ask the parents for money on a couple of occasions but they also got aggressive. In the end he was on first name terms with most of the local police after being a victim or if they contacted him to see if a crime suspect had used his taxi.

DP gave it up in the end because he’d had enough of kids of all ages and peoples attitudes towards them. He’d had food smeared everywhere, kids weeing and pooing in the car and parents just getting out without telling him, a kid he was taking to school on a contract job (11 year old boy) spat at him, hit him then jumped out of the moving car and ran off.
It wasn’t just kids but he found they were more difficult to deal with because he was terrified if he stood up to the behaviour false accusations would be made, if he asked younger accompanied children to stop doing things like banging things against the window and to sit down and put a belt on then he’d often get told he had no right to tell the kids what to do by the parents.

My best friend has teens in a secondary school in the lakes and I’m shocked by the stories they tell me. My friend has an attitude mentioned by a pp that she hated school and hated teachers so her kids now don’t show them any respect. I think the teachers have just given up on them now because my friend argues with any punishment and her kids are going to be the ones who suffer when they leave school with no qualifications.
My friend tries too hard to be a friend rather then a mum and laughs about behaviour most parents would be punishing and so with her kids it definitely started at home.

Gentle parenting.

That's the cause.

It is because people can behave like this and their children can behave like this and nothing happens. You can be a total shit and someone else will still fund your education, your kids, your aggressive dog, your housing, your healthcare and your food.

Not enough do obviously.
My DC are still young, so perhaps I will eat my words in time. But IMO children, right up to teens, don't need unsupervised internet access at all, ever. Tech should be downstairs, in the living room only. Access as limited as necessary until they have proven themselves mature enough to self police.
My oldest is 8, some of the stuff his friends have access to is scary. Parents just hand them a phone because it's easier than anything else. His class has already had issues with bullying on whatsapp! What they'll be up to by their teens, God only knows.

The arguments on here about three year olds on laps is batshit. The kids coming out with this stuff and attacking people, doing bombs on L1 and getting barred from Macdonalds aren't pampered etc, they have shit parents. A lot of the worse type of lads are regularly beaten by parents, older siblings, step parents (plural) and didn't stand a chance, thanks to chronic underfunding of all services. Early intervention in primary schools were needed. We were advocating for it back in 2011. Educational standards across Merseyside have always been lower than the rest of the country. Back in the 90's, when it was becoming apparent that my DD had ADHD/Dyslexia, we had a shortage of Ed Psys and in Kent a child would have to be 18 months to two years behind before health kicked in, on Merseyside it was at least four years behind and it hasn't got better. We've lost clinics and outreach services from AlderHey. We've lost SEN schools and alternative educational units. Austerity and the bedroom tax etc caused further damage, but no-one cared. We've got, what many voted for. Since the 80's there's been a denial about the lack of employment across Merseyside (which is why everyone down south now can't afford housing). If you concentrate on one part of the country being a nice place to live, guess what? Everyone wants to live there. I live just outside of Liverpool, but still in Merseyside. We've now got security guards in our Macdonalds and regular police patrols, just for teenagers. Families who need their children on CP plans, have ineffective family support instead. We need higher standards, via well paid teachers. My GC primary school are losing teachers because it's too stressful for the wages. The closing of the children's centers started some of the issues. That's how I found MN, back in 2010, writing research pieces. What we have today was predicted. Unfortunately the teens from good homes often have to mirror the behaviour around them, to not get attacked. I've seen teens forcing good families to flee from Bootle, Norris Green, Page Moss by putting their windows in, smashing up their cars etc, because the lads in the house are trying to do well. Drug grooming gangs were left to do their damage, but then, we've had so many corrupt police officers, there was nowhere to go for community support.