To think it doesn't always start at home?

[BePoliteOpalQuail]

I have recently been supply teaching in different schools for a month.
Many lovely, hardworking and studious kids, quite a few who try it on with having supply teachers.
Some who spoke to me like I was something they'd stepped in, even at the age of 11 and 12 which is concerning.

I just wonder more and more where this comes from, as it was concerning. I went to seek support from another classroom and a 12 year old girl scowled at me 'Look at you, just stood (standing) there.

I would ask troublemakers to move seats and some would pretty much laugh in my face and say 'erm, nope'.

I asked a 13 year old to put their phone away and they said 'Are you dumb or what? I'm not on it. Are you gonna stop going on at me now?'

Further examples. Or if I gave them a sanction or had them removed some of them would literally shriek at me 'What have I done! I haven't even done anything! What the fuck, you're a joke!

I have been out of teaching for a while but was astonished to hear the complete lack of respect. I know supply teachers are usually regarded as not 'proper teachers' by kids, but I just never remember it being this bad.

There is absolutely zero respect for teachers and adults. A real level of contempt from them if you dare to ask them to do anything, and a lashing of abuse.

Some people will say this starts at home. It may do sometimes, but not for all of them?
What's the solution to behaviour like this?
Each time, I told them firmly to never speak to me, or anyone, in that manner ever again.

Funnily enough, though, my paternal grandmother was a supply teacher in the 1920s and she used to regale us with very similar stories. What was to blame back then - the wireless? Newspapers? The combustion engine?

Of course it starts at home. My DC had some very minor behavioural issues at school. He was on report (pre-emptively) for 4 whole days, because we backed school up and dealt with it. He was terrified for us to find us out he was in trouble because of how strict we are. The awful punishment he was dealt? Temporary ban from electronics and a stern talking to.
But it was much the same when I was at school. Naice middle class kids, poor behaviour, bullying, sexual harassment was rife. It's not a new issue.
As for the respect for elders stuff, I guess that's the downside to the breakdown of the "village". Kids who have nothing to do with any older people don't learn this "respect". You get back what you give I think. Grandparents opting out enmasse, but still expecting toddlers and their mums to fawn?

viewing it through a lens of the child’s rights, the mothers rights not have a child on her lap, a small persons needs are as important as a big persons needs etc etc is just a bit irrelevant surely? Why be so hyper vigilant about rights and needs when it comes to something that has such a simple solution?

I’m not the one being “hyper vigilant” or imposing any kind of narrative about who trumps who though. It’s other pp’s who are doing this when they raised this scenario in the first place and are insistent that children need to be taught to give up their seats for adults in order to “learn their place in society” and instil “manners” and “respect”.

FWIW, the principle I always follow is that those less able to stand for whatever reason - older people, little people, disabled people, pregnant people , etc - take priority for seats in public transport. Seats should always be allocated on the basis of need and not some archaic notion of social hierarchy. I would always give up my seat for someone less able to stand that me, and if I was travelling with children and there was a means of squeezing us all in, I would. However, it should also be noted that the solution of having a small child sit on the lap of their parent is not always the “simple solution” people think it is- there could be any number of factors that make this impractical in different circumstances.

Normal children don't speak to teachers like that.
Those that are dragged up do.
Do you report it or do you have to just try and deal with it yourself?

I agree. I think it does start at home. I think culturally in this country more than most there is a disdain for education and teachers, which is one of the reasons why children from immigrant communities in the same social circumstances tend to achieve so much more educationally. I feel this has become more commonplace, and more accepted amongst parents to see teachers as glorified babysitters. Many dont see the point in school or education.

I don't know whether it's saying they're less important. In most (Not all) cases a 3 year old could still have a seat on their parents lap, while freeing a seat for someone else, so both parties are able to sit down, for the journey.

I don't think anyone is advocating a 3 year old should stand on a bus or train.

But also it's modelling being aware of other people and potentially making minor adjustments to accomodate others...eg if you're out for a walk, move into single file to pass people rather than continuing 3 abreast and making them wait, or move into the road to pass which seems to happen to me very frequently mostly with adults No one is "more important" than the other but it's a courtesy so both people can continue their journey.

Regarding the 3 year old on the train, they don’t pay for a seat do they? If they do then fair enough but otherwise they should not take up a seat. Rather like a bag, that hasn’t paid for a seat either.
Unpopular opinion but school was much better when discipline was firmer. When I was at school bad behaviour was dealt with and I can tell you that it made school a far safer place for students like me. I was studious and very shy. I remember a girl kicking me in PE. The teacher grabbed her and dragged her out of the hall and she was punished. I’ve no idea what her punishment was, but corporal punishment was in use. She never did it again and I was free to enjoy my lessons without the threat of some bully making my life a misery. All those who bemoan strict discipline never actually attended a school which used it, or they were the problem and they were bullies.People like me who never got into trouble and lived through it all agree it was much better. The thought of swearing at a teacher was absolutely unheard of. If anyone did, trust me, they would only do it once.
As for children today some are nice some aren’t. At work it is not my job to parent your children. From experience those with unruly children just hand them a phone to try and passing them.
They don’t seem to think they need to parent their own child and teach them how to behave. Letting them scream and scream and talk over me.
The appointment isn’t for their child so I say one if you wait outside and I’ll speak to the other patent alone. They look aghast, how will they cope, alone with their child having to actually deal with the unruly child. Often they don’t leave saying oh it’s ok. Well it’s not ok. I don’t want to hear it. Then they wonder why their child grows up to be a little shit.

Using a parent as a child stacking and storage mechanism on public transport is not a great example tbh.

Have you read the thread about the 10 year old calling get mother fat etc and the father/husband laughing along and the mother just feeling terrible and not using any sort of consequence?
It does start at home. It also starts in the homes of peers so parental responses are important. DS and DH were playing a board game recently DS pulled off something tricky to put him ahead of DH and then told him to 'suck it'. The game stopped immediately and the first thing we did is ask where he'd heard that and what did he think it meant (at school from a friend and he didn't really know), he was told it was absolutely inappropriate, he was mortified, apologised to DH and promised to never say it again. (He's 6)

On the flip side I heard a slightly older boy being told by his mum to stop being a little shit on the way to school a few weeks ago. Pretty sure she wouldn't bat an eye at suck it.

Regarding the 3 year old on the train, they don’t pay for a seat do they? If they do then fair enough but otherwise they should not take up a seat. Rather like a bag, that hasn’t paid for a seat either.

oh god not this shit again. Fare concessions on public transport are offered as a social benefit, it should have nothing to do with seat allocation. Or do you think old people and disabled people and jobless people aren’t entitled to seats either? Are they just equivalent to baggage to? Or is it only small children you don’t recognise as having human value?

Exactly. Thank you. This is nothing to do with children respecting adults and everything to do with people disrespecting mothers.

And it is mothers. A father would probably be praised for taking the DC out in the first place.

At what age does the child become able to stand though? I’ve seen people use the argument that “they are more likely to fall and injure themselves” when talking about a 12 year old!!!! The same 12 year olds that are the same height as adults and that do wheelies on bikes and roller skate and ride skateboards. At what point does “you are a child and need a seat more than ANYONE ELSE become actually now you need to stand. Parents often don’t really “notice” their child getting older as it were. They still think of them as small and more vulnerable. So suddenly they are a 6ft 13 year old on the bus alone and has never once been told to stand for anyone else because THEY are more important being a “child”.
(please don’t anyone start about hidden disabilities. This is obviously not aimed at them. It is about people who have actually said on threads like these that general 12 years olds are more vulnerable on transport than older people.)

Regarding the taking up of a seat. At what point would you put your 3 year old on your knee? For a pensioner to sit down? For someone with a baby? For a person on crutches?
You really wouldn’t move your child under any circumstances?
And yes, if they haven’t paid for a seat and someone else has, then they should be moved. Quite often the person standing will say it’s fine I’ll stand. Again a fare paying passing might find it difficult to stand. They absolutely should get priority over a child that hadn’t paid for a seat. If you don’t like it then pay for a seat.

“Modern parenting philosophies” are causing a generation of children to be unable to function in a society that doesn’t centre them 24/7.

I’m happy to kick those into touch and teach my child that she is not the centre of the universe and to consider others’ needs as well as her own and not confuse needs with wants.

As this thread and so many others on MN show, not teaching children respect for elders and authority doesn’t help children or society in general.

A 12 year old is obviously able to stand- a 3 year old isn’t. Where the line is drawn will always be ambiguous and on a case by case basis- same with giving up your seat to the elderly. I do think young people should be taught to give up their seats for people less able to stand than themselves and to be considerate of that- sounds like lots of adults on this thread need to learn that basic lesson in empathy and respect , entitled as they seem to be that their needs take priority over little people and that mothers should be used as extra chairs!

It’s just manners really. Like the example I gave at work. Do you think a car mechanic wants your feral child running around their work space, screaming and demanding attention whilst both parents are there. Or should one patent remove the child so that the mechanic can actually do their job. This is what I see time and time again. Just because I’m female it doesn’t mean I want to tolerate your screaming child.

I get your point but in London no under 16 pays for the bus, so I wouldn’t use that rationale myself. As long as you’re of an age where you can double up somehow (and I remember often doing this with friends in my teens), you should do so when space is at a premium.

I'd be absolutely appalled if my teenager ever spoke to anybody like this. I do believe it begins at home, 100%. I have to listen to my neighbours kids who at 7 and 9 think nothing of telling their parents to f off - i dread to think how they behave in school

But other people do not agree with you that a 12 year old is able to stand. So 3 isn’t. 4? 5? 9? This is how it starts. At some point a parent needs to make a decision that their child is more able that others. But for some that never seems to happen. People on here always say how 12 is still so young etc in regards to so many things. So why would standing on a bus be any different?

Plus if you don’t start it young you’ll get a lot more push back when suddenly telling a 10 year old to move and he’s asking why why should I???

And yes, if they haven’t paid for a seat and someone else has, then they should be moved

Other groups who may not pay for a seat on public transport: people over 60, people with disabilities, veterans, students, job seekers. Do you require all these people to move for you?

I work in a secondary school with it’s fair share of challenging kids.
It always comes from home. There is no getting around that.
My own kids would be fucking ended if they spoke to a teacher - or anyone - like that.

its Bloody autocorrect

This is how it starts

I don’t get your point at all. Should we never give up a seat for an elderly person, because we can’t definitively say at what age a person becomes elderly?

I think it comes from bad parenting.