To think too many people are happy to live off benefits forever?

[BritishQueue]

Okay, I know this is a touchy subject here on MN, but I need to ask, AIBU to think that too many people are just choosing to stay on universal credit rather than work?

Obviously, I’m not talking about people who genuinely can’t work - disabilities, carers, etc (even though a lot of those who claim to be unfit for work are perfectly capable, and I’ve seen “carers” for people who don’t actually need any care…). But I know multiple people who are completely able-bodied and yet have no intention of ever getting a job. They say things like “it’s not worth it” or “I’d be worse off working,” and honestly, I don’t get it. I work full-time, pay tax, and yet I see people getting rent paid, extra handouts, and still managing holidays and luxuries I can’t afford. Not to mention that a lot of women think the government should subsidise their SAHM lifestyle.

I just don’t understand how it’s fair? Surely benefits should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice? AIBU?

Because they are a "soft target", just like the pensioners who had their Winter Fuel Payments ripped off them.

Necessity, or lack thereof.

Think how absolutely awful things were in the dark ages. Living in a straw house exposed to the elements, back breaking work every day, the deaths of nearly all your children, disease lurking and never knowing which day would be your last.

I really doubt a tenth, or a quarter, of people at that time were ‘mentally incapable of working’. I imagine there were very few people hiding in their huts riddled with anxiety, because not working or doing the day’s chores wasn’t an option.

We’ve rightly tried to make life as comfortable as possible, and we’ve come a long way really. But the Overton window has shifted and rather than comparing our existences to others throughout history, we compare it to a perfect existence which has never really existed as the norm for people. We have too much time on our hands now to dwell on bad memories or perceived issues.

I think a degree of necessity rather than providing endless safety nets will be the only thing to change people’s attitude to work.

The electorate are a soft target? 🤔

How can you tell the difference between ‘realising you’ve been masking this entire time’ and what we used to call a nervous breakdown?

No, those that have disabilities,

But it won't just affect people with SEMH. It's also those of us who have physical disabilities. It includes those who need assistance to wash their hair or wash below the waist and those who need help putting clothes on below their waist.

No one is denying the system needs changing. But they're going about it the wrong way.

Agree completely, you’ve put it really well. It’s not so much a ‘let’s make up a fake MH claim to get benefits’, it’s more an Overton Window thing where people truly believe it is the norm to find life easy and gratifying, and that most people are effortlessly organised and highly sociable. And therefore because they don’t they must be ND or have anxiety. Their tolerance for negative feelings is very low so what would be described as ‘worried’ 30 years ago is now ‘highly anxious’. People use very extreme language as the norm, they rarely use moderate or mild descriptors anymore. So naturally all the answers they give to questions about their MH sound highly concerning.

Frankly if somebody is well enough to do ANYTHING BUT work, they’re fine to work. I’m tired of these plainly obvious things being challenged and an insistence that ‘if somebody says they can’t work but can do anything else, why would they lie?’. We need to stop acting like we were born yesterday and falling for this plain nonsense.

This is an interesting question and I should state we aren't claiming but my husband did have a nervous breakdown and was off work sick for 6 months whilst he recovered. (He had sick pay as he had a good employer) so no need to claim.
Anyway he needed a total rest, cbt, medication, physical activity and a phased return supported by occupational health. His employer paid for the cbt. We had a friend who was in a similar position and his employer paid for him to attend a mental health centre 3 times a week after an initial break, where he did art therapy, group therapy and pilates
I think currently we don't really treat mental health issues at all, or too late and too little, unless you have a good employee.

With regard to the youngsters where this seems to be a big problem the issue is more complex. I could write reams. But I am involved in a semh school for children who have anxiety and poor attendance and would be the prime candidates for becoming neets. But the school really helps prevent this. But it costs more than normal school.

The short answer is more funds and resources at the start of a problem with recovery as the aim.

This is an important point and one that highlights how many posters have never engaged with the assessment system for disability benefits, know nothing of how eligibility is either assessed or awarded, and yet are blithely agreeing with a cut that will not only achieve the stated aim of ending benefit claims for those who have low level needs with little ongoing cost, but will also end those of claimants who have significant need and who are at the mercy of assessors who will now be under significantly more pressure not to award four points or more in any category. The government promised wholesale reform of the PIP assessment process. That hasn’t happened. Instead we have an arbitrary cut with the sole aim of saving money.

For those who don’t know the system, DWP employ independent assessment providers - the assessors are recruited from NHS and given five weeks online training as disability analysts. None of the HCPs are doctors. They are mainly general nurses, physios and paramedics with no particular speciality. After training they are expected to assess the effects of disability sometimes far outside their experience/remit as medics, and in many cases their subsequent reports contradict those of specialists directly involved with the claimant.

The report then goes to a DWP decision maker, who relies on that report, both to assess the claimant and to explain any other medical evidence the claimant has provided - the decision maker is not medically trained. If the claimant disagrees with the decision they can ask for a mandatory reconsideration, which means the DWP will give the relevant paperwork to a different decision maker to reassess. Nine times out of ten the decision remains the same.

The claimant then has no option but to go to appeal tribunal if they still don’t agree. This is a massive cost to the tax payer, but for many it’s the only way to get a fair decision in a system designed to put the claimant at disadvantage throughout the process.

As an example of what disabled people face here’s an example of what it takes to score four points (judged as needing help from another person) in the assessment of cooking and preparing a meal. Firstly the test assumes that everything you need is magically in front of you from the start. It also assumes that you can either stand or sit at a kitchen counter height surface for long enough to prepare and cook from scratch (as an outreach worker l attended an appeal where the judge seriously questioned the competence of the assessor who had decided that the claimant who had severe spinal issues and wore two full length leg callipers could do this). It does not assess the ability to fetch, carry lift/drain, bend down or stretch up to cupboards, or use an oven. To score four points you need to demonstrate the need for help from another person to an assessor whose brief is to use any opportunity to replace the need for help with a suitable aid or appliance which scores less.

Appeal tribunals are the only way to get doctors and appropriately experienced professionals involved in the assessment and currently 70% of DWP decisions are overturned in favour of the claimant. That figure should make everyone here sit up and take notice, because it indicates that the system is not fit for purpose and that our sick and disabled are being subjected to an assessment process that has been tinkered with so many times, it’s now akin to some sort of perverse game show. The proposed four points cut will only exacerbate that. What is needed is root and branch reform of the processes involved in assessing for PIP support as well as assessing the ability to work. If we employ properly qualified and experienced assessors and adopt a right first time approach then a huge amount of savings are up for grabs as a result of eliminating the need for expensive tribunals.

And once again, l have to stress that for a disability/sickness benefit claim, the claimants’ own word is not enough to secure an award. There needs to be medical evidence to support it.

So somebody spending a couple of hours at the pub once or twice a week with their friends means someone is well enough to work a Monday to Friday 9 to 5? Seriously??? Do you really imagine the people you would define as seriously disabled never go out or have any kind of life? I assure you some of us do and I'm in the severe and complex kind of disabled category.

Yes, seriously. Most people who work don’t spend 4 hours in a pub a week.

I'm saying that working 9 to 5 Monday To Friday takes a lot of energy . Sitting in a pub with a pint of coke or whatever twice a week doesn't take nearly as much. But it might be all that someone suffering from a debilitating condition like fibromyalgia or PTS D or something like that cM manage. Many people with a limb missing or Down syndrome could work although some might not be able to . Same as with any other condition. But some conditions involve severe fatigue and pain or muscle tone issues. Those are the kind of conditions that need careful pacing

But is your job like sitting in a pub socialising with friends, while other people serve you drinks and maybe food? Is anyone's?

Are they taking anyone at your workplace? Asking for me! I quite fancy a job where I do absolutely nothing except drink a coca cola and yak on to a friend.

Certain sectors are, yes. Pensioners are thought to traditionally vote Tory - hence their protection under the Tories. Labour didn’t hesitate to make them first on the list for cuts. Similarly with disabled people. They don’t vote Tory, so the Tories had nothing to lose by proposing swingeing cuts to disability benefits - it’s not a vote loser if they don’t vote for you anyway. And at the next election Labour will find out the cost of their duplicity on benefit changes.

Absolutely this.

Something a lot of people don’t take into account IME (including, if this thread is anything to go by, some people who have disabilities themselves) is that symptoms fluctuate. Personally I’d have thought this would be a no-brainer, but going by some of the comments here and on recent disability threads in general, it doesn’t seem to be.

When you see a person with a condition or disability out and about outside of a work context (i.e. somewhere they're not compelled to be), you are almost certainly seeing them on one of their better days, so it’s very likely they will seem relatively functional. What you’re not seeing is how much it might be taking out of them to manage this, or what they have to deal with on days of extreme pain or other difficulties, when perhaps they are bedbound and/or barely functional. By definition you are not seeing them at their worst, because at their worst they are not able to be out and about. I think this is probably where a lot of the ‘you seem fine to me’ type ignorance is coming from among those who are lucky enough not to be familiar with what it is like to be disabled or chronically ill, or who are managing their own issues so 'why can't others do the same?' But sadly I suppose these are the same people who don’t want to challenge their own prejudices/don't want anyone else to be able to access support because they can't.

Accommodations for disability and chronic conditions, if they are to be of any use, need to be tailored to safety-net the worst days, when a person is unable to cope without assistance. But according to some, they're swinging the lead if they have better/more functional days at all, it seems. How very dare anyone claim benefits if they have any days when they would theoretically be able to work, even though in practice they probably couldn't because on the bad days they can't leave the bed let alone the house? Off to the Job Centre queue with them, where they will apparently find no end of jobs that will not only accommodate their conditions but also miraculously heal them, because good honest toil, etc. If only they'd known this all along, eh?

Honestly, this place sometimes.

Yes but, as everyone rushed to explain with the PIP assessment, doing something isn’t just ‘doing it’.

In the same way ‘cooking a meal’ isn’t just cooking a meal, neither is ‘a couple of hours sat in a pub’. You have to get dressed and ready to go, then either walk or drive to get there unless it’s literally next door. Once you get there you have to queue for drinks, socialise (which apparently is also exhausting) then get home again.

If you can do that twice a week, you’re fine to do some part time computer based job.

I'm not good with computers. My generation didn't really use them. Part time jobs from home would be ideal but not many of those about. I live semi independently and need care workers to help me. Due to cognitive issues I would need help to be set up in my own business and deal with financial side (have dyscaluclia on top of everything else) but I don't know any disabled friendly organisations who could help me with that ?

Where are the disabled friendly work placements who help people with complex mental and physical needs? There used to be agencies like Remploy? I suppose I could try SCOPE or Mencap.

I was sacked by a work coach in an organisation to help get disabled people back to work. I had a very public and awful breakdown and he refused to help me afterwards . Just wrote me off. I don't think he understood much about ND and complex severe mental illness.

DD has anxiety and depression and can't work. She can't claim PIP either, she finds it too stressful. She attempted suicide the one time I tried to push her to apply. The idea of having to speak to someone on the phone or having a stranger in her house was too much for her to manage.

She can go to the pub, but it's conditional. She can only go with at least 2 weeks' notice, if me and/or her sister come with her, if her eyebrows go right, and if the taxi comes on time. If any of that doesn't happen, she can't go. Once there, she doesn't go to the bar, she sits in a corner, and if anyone looks at her or speaks to her she starts crying, and we have to leave.

Could she work? Sure, if you can find her a job that will a) allow me to go with her until she gets into the routine, b) doesn't mind her crying everytime someone speaks to her c) can cope with her not turning up if her taxi is late/hair goes wrong/the postman comes early and d) nothing ever changes and nothing ever goes wrong. She can't cope with change or any slight deviation from routine.

Anxiety isn't "being a bit worried," it can be debilitating.

I don't know what you mean? I did have a nervous/mental breakdown. Caused, in part, by being totally exhausted from masking my whole life.

You know, care work sometimes involves taking service users to a cafe or for a pub lunch. Admittedly, they need help with getting dressed first. But there is no way that any of my elderly people can do a part-time computer-based job...

Someone I know used their PIP money for a trip to America. Which goes to show, it can be cut a bit.

I relate a lot to this . Many of those symptoms of your DDs I can relate to as part of my CPTSD, OCD and other diagnoses (including EUPD/BPD). I'm making some progress with therapy and some good support workers but I'm a long way from being ready to work yet.

I think it would take an employer very clued up on complex mental illness to work with me . Also I'm in my mid 40s, with severe physical disabilities including FND, a movement disorder etc.

I think people are thinking in very black and white terms about a very complex situation on here!

to you and your DD.

Just because you know one person who supposedly spends their money on a holiday doesn't mean everyone does and doesn't mean it should be cut

I spend mine on a few days away each year. But there is a disability related reason as to why

Assuming that job, or something similarly suitable, can actually be found.