To think too many people are happy to live off benefits forever?

[BritishQueue]

Okay, I know this is a touchy subject here on MN, but I need to ask, AIBU to think that too many people are just choosing to stay on universal credit rather than work?

Obviously, I’m not talking about people who genuinely can’t work - disabilities, carers, etc (even though a lot of those who claim to be unfit for work are perfectly capable, and I’ve seen “carers” for people who don’t actually need any care…). But I know multiple people who are completely able-bodied and yet have no intention of ever getting a job. They say things like “it’s not worth it” or “I’d be worse off working,” and honestly, I don’t get it. I work full-time, pay tax, and yet I see people getting rent paid, extra handouts, and still managing holidays and luxuries I can’t afford. Not to mention that a lot of women think the government should subsidise their SAHM lifestyle.

I just don’t understand how it’s fair? Surely benefits should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice? AIBU?

I must have missed the memo then. I am childfree and can barely look after myself.
I am not capable of wiping the arses of strangers or even providing a friendly face. Both aspects of care work.

I do not know a single person who has never had at least one job in their life and I live in a shithole known for being one of the poorest areas in the country with few employment opportunities.

My mother taught until recently in what is considered a better off southern city, in a white poorer community. Levels of multigenerational worklessness were astonishingly high - over a 40 year career she saw the same extended families repeatedly, the same poor parenting, limiting life choices & low aspiration over and over. Her proudest day was when i told her I'd come across a former pupil of hers in a professional role - she was so delighted that he had broken the cycle.

For PIP, robust medical evidence is required for a successful claim. If not provided by the claimant, then DWP will either obtain it from the medical professionals involved with the claimant, or ask the claimant to submit to a face to face assessment.

You will be told that people self report their symptoms to professionals, and the professionals have to write it down and then it is evidence.

I agree with a lot of this but the corporation tax thing is a total dead end. It’s not going to happen. The UK government is doing what it can.

Why do you think landlords can put prices up? There are more people than there are properties on the rental market. Rent freezes are not going to help this. Believe me. They have failed wherever they have been tried with exception of places where they have been done in conjunction with a mass building program.

As I acknowledged upthread, sadly there will always be people trying to game the system. The actual chancers (who are fewer in number than a lot of people like to assume, but that's a whole other topic) make me furious myself, they are making it harder for those genuinely in need. But the extent to which those in need are being tarred with the same brush as the chancers is unlike anything I've ever seen in my lifetime, and your observations above aren't relevant what I said in my pp, i.e. that I'm worried we're going to see suicide rates going up. If it hasn't started to happen already.

For PIP, robust medical evidence is required for a successful claim. If not provided by the claimant, then DWP will either obtain it from the medical professionals involved with the claimant, or ask the claimant to submit to a face to face assessment

If you self report symptoms of depression or anxiety for long enough, it becomes the "robust medical evidence" you describe. There will many medical appointments over a long period, referrals to psychiatrists, possibly antidepressant medication may be prescribed.

Doctors can only ever validate what you report where mental health is concerned - they cannot dismiss symptoms you describe because the only symptoms are those you can self report, conditions can't be ruled out by objective blood tests, scans, biopsies etc.

Many people who claim pip for mental health are not claiming it fraudently. They genuinely believe that the struggle they find life to be, is beyond that of others and is medical in nature.

Do you mean people? Or do you mean women?

For PIP, a simple GP diagnosis of anxiety/depression is not enough to secure a claim. The condition has to be diagnosed by a second line, consultant led mental health team. It’s anything but self reported. The descriptors for disability benefits are online - anyone can access them. The notion on MN that it’s a piece of piss to claim for anxiety and depression is so far removed from the truth that I don’t know where to start with it.

Women. Always women. The women in my family saw their careers suffer to look after their MIL. MIL had her own sons. But men don't do care. Always the women.

If it's the one I think you mean, I didn't know it had been pulled but I'm not surprised at all. It was vicious and a lot of people disgraced themselves on that thread imo. The mob mentality on benefit threads atm is frightening.

It is horrible. I claim benefits for mental health reasons. I am done and fed up with seeing people think I just had an appointment with my GP and got money.
That is not how it happens at all.
I was psychotic at one point and didn't think I was ill at all. I was sectioned and observed. The evidence I gave to the DWP was observed things, not self reported. I didn't even fill the forms in. My CPN did.

nods glumly

I was turned down for LCWRA due to anxiety/agoraphobia despite the fact I hadn't left my house on my own for nearly a year at that point. In only went out with someone else if I really had to.

During my assessment i was asked if i could plan a train journey from town A to town B. I asked if they meant plan, or actually take the journey. They said plan. Well yes. I can plan a journey. I wouldn't have actually made the journey though. They also asked what I would do if I wanted a cup of tea and ran out of milk. I said I'd send one of the teens to the shop. They asked what I'd do if they were out. I'd wait until they came home. They didn't believe me that I wouldn't go to the shop.
I have no idea how I was meant to prove that I was telling the truth.

It's really not just a case of saying "Hi, I'm Haddy and I'm anxious" and being given money!

How do you see your ability to work going forwards?

Yes it’s awful especially when the dps have time on their hands

Seeing your comments on here, and not just on this thread, I am not going to give you an answer as I know it wont be met kindly.

For PIP, a simple GP diagnosis of anxiety/depression is not enough to secure a claim. The condition has to be diagnosed by a second line, consultant led mental health team. It’s anything but self reported. The descriptors for disability benefits are online - anyone can access them. The notion on MN that it’s a piece of piss to claim for anxiety and depression is so far removed from the truth that I don’t know where to start with it

I do not think its a piece of piss to claim.

I am not blaming claimants.

I think we have a societal issue with learned incapacity and a lack of resilience, where the normal struggles of life have been medicalised. I think for many of these people, we have let them down. We have validated a perception that they cannot cope to a point where they have become impaired, out of work too long to imagine returning, ingrained in a genuine self belief that they "cannot cope".

It is in the face of adversity that we find our greatest strength. I think most people can handle much more than they think. Life is hard for us all, social media convinces us that some people are floating through finding everything easy but its just not real! I look from the outside like a very successful, resilient individual in a leadership role. Inside I'm often feeling stressed, exhibit many symptoms people on here discuss as being indicative of ADHD, struggle to juggle everything and fight imposter syndrome. It is normal, it is life.

Ok so to the people claiming, what do you think the answer is?

Why do we have a vast proportion of working age people so completely unable to work and requiring total state support?
It is unprecedented.

Is there a cause? Is there anything you think might have prevented your own mental health decline/crisis, were there triggers etc. Is there any conclusion we can draw to help younger people not reach this position?

We are broke. The current position isn't sustainable, so we have to do something such that we don't have such a high percentage of people unable to contribute.

I claim UC, and I only know the reason I do. UC claimants are not one homogenous mass that knows the business of everyone else.

I do think younger people are in a better position nowadays, especially regarding being ND. Nowadays it is picked up early, and those kids can and do grow up to lead a normal and independent life. There is a lot of support there now.

When I was a kid, if you were in mainstream school, you were seen as fine. But we still struggled anyway and that can cause MH issues in itself. Decades of masking, and burnout.

Ooh, I dunno.

Perhaps employers regarding people over about 40 as undesirable? Direct experience of that. Employers wanting a degree for entry level jobs plus experience which puts younger people on the back foot.

In terms of mental health, what could I have done to protect it more in the last five years? Well, I could have not looked after my dying mother at home at the beginning of lockdown, which was because she was unsafe alone in her own flat and support for cancer sufferers, apart from district nurses to do her drains every other day, vanished because Covid. I could have avoided all the sadmin such as clearing her rented flat and other bureaucracy while trying to comply with the lickdown restrictions.

I could also have been blasé about the hit my shop took, culminating in having to downsize it and re-locate it during 2021, because, ya know, I wanted to work and be self sufficient and contribute to society.

Then, one month after our grand re-opening, I should have shrugged off my partner collapsing from a brain bleed at home, testing positive for Covid on admittance to hospital, being unable to visit him until he had a second brain bleed that I was informed about on my sodding birthday. Then I suppose I could have shrugged off his accidental extubation when he was transferred from one ICU to another, when I was allowed to visit, because the portable ventilator fell off the end of the bed. Then I could have avoided sitting at his bedside waiting for him to die for 72 hours.

Funeral (which had to be on my late mothers birthday) and further sadmin could have been avoided I suppose. Then discovering at postmortem three months later he'd had aggressive esophageal cancer that had metastised to his liver, lungs and brain was a bit of a kicker but I suppose that's just life.

Should have been over joyed to be back in my shop, where custom dried up after the grief whores had their fill of weeping and wailing over his loss, as he was quite prominent in the local community. Hung on for nearly two years, racked up 10 grands worth of debt, finally decided to move out of area, and before I could coherently wind things up, both my elderly parents went into crisis so as an only child, I had to firefight that.

In the same two month period, I was served a Section 21, was visiting SM in hospital every other day while Dad fought off pneumonia at home, then ended up with my Dad living with me temporarily due to domestic violence from batshit mentally unwell SM after she was discharged early from a section because a particularly arrogant psychiatrist put everythingdown to a "marital spat" . Was simultaneously trying to wind up my business, help Dad (85) get council accommodation which was a bloody nightmare I can't even begin to explain, find myself alternative accommodation, downsizing from a 4 bed house, accommodate a vast amount of stuff into storage.. it goes on and fucking on. But it's just life right?

Dad's currently in hospital and I'm two weeks in of daily visits, and bracing for prolonged caring responsibilities as despite his laundry list of health issues (nuclear test veteran, natch) he's sharp as a tack and determined to live till he's 90.

Our greatest strength comes from adversity, does it? Oh, I put on a good front, but the only reason I haven't topped myself is because it would upset other people. After bills and rent, I have less than 200 a month to live on. No, I won't give up my cats, it would give me one less reason to live.

As for work - I'm angry, defensive, and I'm sure an employer would be thrilled silly to accommodate my Dad's care needs, and likely ongoing crises, which are unlikely to be fully met by social care.

Did I mention my MIL? Cared for her at home fir nearly two years before my Mum got her cancer diagnosis. She's end stage dementia, in a nursing home, with possible bowel cancer, and seizures, her demise is imminent and she stopped recognising us 5 years ago. Non verbal, like a tiny bird in the foetal position due to muscle contracture. She was in the care home on the South coast that had the carbon monoxide area and I can't visit her easily because her new nursing home is not directly accessible by public transport without it costing several hundred pounds. I spend all my time liaising with social workers, medical professionals and officialdom in general.

Yes, I'm anxious. I've weathered many storms but now I'm suffering from CPTSD and if I didn't have a monthly chat with a lovely social prescriber, which is the only help I can currently access I would be a complete basket case, alongside about three friends who support me as much as they can despite their own significant issues.

So tell me, how could I have avoided all these "triggers" and my current existential crisis? My big girl pants are the size of a fucking marquee.

I have no idea how your acquaintances have got away with not working and living on benefits if they are able-bodied and able to work.

Like the 2 previous answers, it's long, complicated and not one size fits all.

I've realised as an adult that I'm ND, didn't my whole life masking until I couldn't any more.

I'm also a CSA survivor, which has given me cPTSD.

The government/powers that be doing more to make NRPs pay their fare share (I'd say make them do their fare share of physically raising the DC too, but actually don't want my DC spending time with someone who doesn't want to spend time with them)

Better MH support earlier on, rather than having to wait until crisis point.

And (and I know I'll get backlash for this) but I actually think that more financial support when I needed it (eg when I was too ill to leave the house) would have helped as the constant stress, and going without food at times, due to lack of income made my MH worse. I know that's controversial.

Anyway. I'm better than i was, hoping to find something part time and work my way up to full time.

You are right. Being made poorer and scrabbling for food and using loan sharks will make people with mental health issues more ill.
Yet some seem to think it will be an epiphany moment and those same people with mental illness will suddenly be well again and walk into a £50k job.

I work in the care sector, and please, please, please, I cannot cope with any more colleagues who are there because they need a job, any job. Please, no more!

I love my job, I truly do. I love the variety, the measureable difference I make to my service users' days, the challenge of assisting them to lead their lives while simultaneously accommodating their care needs, and even the tedium of documentation.

There is only one thing that I struggle to cope with and that is the relentless stream of uninterested staff who are there for a couple of months, before either leaving or failing their probation. Simply not everyone has the capacity to take care of others and there is no point deluding ourselves they do. Just look at the threads from MNers with useless partners and ex-partners who seem incapable of feeding toddlers or adequately packing a nappy bag before they leave the house for a planned day out. Such men and women are the same when they get through the interview process for care roles too.

Care is a verb, a doing-word; you have to be willing to think about what's necessary for your service user and to do it, even when a manager isn't watching to micromanage you, task by task.