To wonder if Labour really understand the implications of their attack on private schools?

[Bumpitybumper]

I've just found out a private school near me is almost certainly closing. I honestly think this is a disaster for everyone involved. Obviously the direct employees (teachers, caretakers, caterers and cleaners etc) and the suppliers will suffer. The children will now need to find a new school either in the state or private sector. Easier said than done considering many of the good local schools are full so there it isn't like they are applying for a state schools with a full range of options that everyone else has. Most importantly though, I wonder if the government has quite anticipated the type of children that they are disrupting and harming here.

I withdrew my child from this private school because the school was basically acting as a bit of a school that unofficially specialised in SEN and my child doesn't have a SEN so it was a poor fit. Many of the children struggled with behaviour, socialising and needed adaptions to the school day to keep them on an even keel. The school managed this fine as it was small enough to adapt and create an environment that wasn't too stressful for the children. I am seriously worried about what will happen to these kids now. I don't think many of them could cope in a state setting, especially one that is struggling already to deliver a good level of education to the children there. I honestly think these children will either have their own education decimated or they will incredibly disruptive and resource hungry which will impact other kids. I feel really angry on these poor children's behalf. The parents that I know that sent their kids there were doing so as a last resort because they had been failed by the state sector.

AIBU to think that Labour really hasn't thought through who they are impacting with their anti private school policies? They are nowhere near nuanced enough to target the privileged only and inevitably many struggling and SEN kids are going to be hugely detrimented by this.

YANBU. Labour are the Kings of unintended consequences.

The vast majority of parents cannot afford private education, irrespective of the sacrifices they might make. There are several children with SEN in state schools that are not receiving appropriate support due to lack of resources,
Educational opportunities to enable children to reach their full potential should be available and optimised for ALL children, irrespective of their family circumstances/finances.
I support the increase in private school fees, to support investment into the state education sector

The vast majority of children in private schools do not have SEN/disabilities.

The private sector is notorious for "managing out" most children who can't contribute a clutch of top grades!

Not true - my DD is in an academic independent and a big whack of the kids have dyslexia, dyspraxia, high functioning ASD or similar.

Most of the time these display as mildly eccentric/high functioning, so they wouldn’t be severe enough to get an EHCP; but that still doesn’t mean they don’t have additional needs, just that the environment helps compensate for them. Take that away, and maybe in a big state school with no support they suddenly aren’t so high-functioning. Maybe they just sink in a big school with no support. Is that a good outcome all round?

Will you still support it if it raises no revenue and instead makes state schools more crowded?

Well, that was completely unnecessary.

Who decides what a luxury is? What should the benchmark be? Something not everyone has equal access to? Should we pay VAT on all 'Luxury' items?

For me a car is a luxury because I can't afford to run one. Is it ok for me to suggest a car is a luxury because I can't afford it?

What about countries that don't have running water, should we all pay 20% on our water rates?
Or VAT on milk, cheese, bread, because there are places where these things are not readily accessible?

But an increase in private school fees won't achieve the same opportunity for everyone.

Some people will always have more than others. For a whole range of reasonable. Engineering equality has never ended well,...

Rubbish. There are lots of non-selective independents that have a high proportion of SEN students. Even at my DC’s selective private, there are quite a number of children with SEN. The state primary school teacher of a colleague’s child actually recommended it to my colleague as her child has SEN and the teacher was aware of the school’s great reputation for SEN pupils.

Well the vast majority of kids with autism (mine included) have to suck that up. The world isn’t a private school. State schools are coming on leaps and bounds with making reasonable adjustments for autism too.Only 1 in 100 children have autism. Only 6% of all children are privately educated. The vast majority are staying privately educated. Out of the teeny tiny number not staying only a fraction will have autism. The private sector did not give a shit about state Sen kids before, it’s dreadful the way the sector is using them to avoid paying VAT on a luxury good now. Just awful.

Yes, schools for all children should be improved. This VAT policy isn’t going to do that though. In fact, it’s looking increasingly likely that it will cost the taxpayer money. In any event, the money isn’t hypothicated for state education. Even the Government’s own lawyers who are representing them in the VAT court case said it would be used for public funds “including” education. In other words, it isn’t just going to education. And that’s if it actually raises some money.

It is going to raise money. It is not having a negative impact on the state sector.

Given the number of schools closing plus the huge increase in applications to state sixth forms by private school pupils this year (as reported by the Times last week), no it isn’t going to raise money. As I said, even if it does, it’s not going to go to education.

I wonder how much VAT the richest schools like Eton, Harrow and others who have spent millions in recent years on building projects will be reclaiming. Their parents are wealthy enough to suck up having to pay VAT on fees so they won't lose pupils. Win win!

It has been widely reported that it isn’t having an impact. State numbers are dropping- a lot!

No it hasn’t been widely reported. The Guardian (which has a great reputation for non-biased reporting, NOT) said that because applications hadn’t significantly increased, there was no impact. Well in some areas applications have increased by almost 10%. I would call that significant. Furthermore, it is impossible to know just by applications as private school parents often apply for state school places at the same time as applying for private school. It’s impossible to tell until September when we actually have the figures for those in private education.

And on the subject of applications, private school pupil applications for state sixth forms are at a record high this year. As reported by the Times.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/adding-vat-to-private-school-fees-has-had-no-obvious-impact-on-state-sector-applications-390546/

It is councils reporting it and it’s hardly surprising given how few are able to afford fees that are more than many earn, how few are leaving the sector and how state numbers are dropping.

But hey let’s carry on attempting to whip up a problem when there isn’t one so a tiny number of parents who are now the same as everybody else and unable to afford private education can whine.

Did you read that article?! It quotes the Guardian. As I said, it was the Guardian that reported this. And as I also said, you cannot tell by the number of applications alone. Private school parents apply for state places every year. It’s the number of places that are accepted which is significant, which we don’t know yet.

And as you are so fixated by application numbers:

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/state-sixth-form-vat-private-school-fees-l5c0zlcnj

Right back at you -only the Times and Mail are reporting this and it’s not based on data from councils.

However the privately educating have tried to hide their kids private education by applying for state sixth form in increasing numbers because unis are aware the privately educated are over represented in the top unis.

Sixth form is a whole different beast anyway. More pupils means more courses running which is a good thing.

The Times is the least biased newspaper out there. The Guardian is as biased as the Mail. It just takes a different view point.

Complete nonsense about “hiding” private education. University applications include where GCSE’s are taken.

More private school pupil applications for sixth forms means that (1) state school pupils are pushed out of the highest performing sixth forms and (2) increased costs to the taxpayer. Which is one of the reasons this policy isn’t going to make any money.

The Times is the least biased!!!!!🤣

It is centre right and the vast majority of its employees will have privately educated kids as journalism is yet another sector unfairly over represented in the top jobs by the privately educated.

And nope to your last point. Our massive outstanding sixth form college takes everybody. The privately educated often move into the state sector at sixth form, it’s nothing new.

And according the private whiners all the kids leaving the private sector are high needs SEN( interestingly without EHCPs), now it’s those hoovering up high performing state schools.

Over and over again.

Just accept you are now the same as the overwhelming majority ie unable to afford private education. All the whining in the world isn’t going to change that.

State Sixth Forms often handle their own admissions, so the councils won’t at this point have any clear oversight of how many applications have been made. It is also still a very high birth year, 20 per cent of kids historically went private at Sixth Form and because most pupils only study 3 subjects - it is far cheaper now to get a weekly tutor in every subject you are studying than go to private school for Sixth Form. Add in the fact that if a lot of private schools do lose pupils at Sixth Form - many may be in trouble financially immediately, if that happens.

On all accounts, it is a massive potential weak point in this policy and we will only know in September 2025 if there is overwhelm. And there is nothing legally the Government can do about it, as academies are perfectly entitled to select the top performer at Sixth Form. If you look at GCSE results, private schools pupils outperform state educated pupils significantly at GCSE level.

To anyone with half a brain, the out of control alarm bells may well be ringing in this regard. I suppose Labour can sit back and just hope for the best. That seems to be the plan. However, they have zero control on predicting what parents are going to do aka how many of those countless applications will translate into top grades and Sixth Form places in state. The Government may well end up having to pay private schools to take some state pupils if this all blows up in their face.

@TesterP0t
Nobody said all of them, lots of people simply said the kids who leave are 'likely' those who have SEN and parents who had scrimped and saved to send them there, and now can't afford a 20% inc in fees.

Have you ever experienced getting an EHCP it's not easy.

As for refering to private school whiners,this post is full of state whiners we can't afford private school, so we'll rejoice now you can't! You've spent this whole thread whining that some people have more than you and it's not fair.

You all will have 'more' than whole groups of other people, if you were to lose it would you like it, if they rejoiced?

Green is not a colour that suits anyone's complexion

Yes, the Times is broadly neutral. You even describe it as centrist yourself. Neither the Guardian or the Telegraph could be described as centrist.

I wouldn’t describe journalism as a top job. The pay is pretty shit unless you are very senior in a leading company. To contrast, I work in a different sector in a team that is predominantly state school educated. Our average salary is £150k plus benefits.

Your local sixth form doesn’t represent all state sixth forms. It is common for them to award entry on the basis of the highest GCSE grades.