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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Fed up of reading threads asking how they can get out of paying care home fees.

891 replies

Nextdoortomeis · 01/04/2025 09:51

As per the title.
I'm sure lots of people would like the state to pay care home fees.
But we don't live in a fair world.
Both mum and mil paid nearly £70k in fees
yes I didn't want to pay but I also wanted them to get the best care in their later years.

OP posts:
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Kandalama · 04/04/2025 14:52

Sharptonguedwoman · 04/04/2025 14:46

That’s hard. Hope your dh is ok now. I wanted mum somewhere nearer so it would be easier to visit and fortunately she has landed in a good place.

Thankyou yes dh had a 5% chance of full recovery and he did recover in that he came out just as crazy as he went in anyway 🤣🤣🤣 with some extra electrics in his brain keeping it all together
( kids were 8 and twins age 3 at the time, it was hell )

I agree re keeping family close. That’s what we did with my MIL. ( Although my dad wanted to stay near his friends and church so a long way away. Everyone ps different I suppose )

Poppins21 · 04/04/2025 14:53

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/04/2025 14:48

I have no idea. I found this fuller description of old age care in France but I will leave any further Googling up to you.
https://www.frenchentree.com/living-in-france/retiring/preparing-for-old-age-in-france-care-homes-home-help-benefits

Thanks for this interesting read it says…

Almost all benefits and financial aid are income-tested, so if you have substantial savings or children in France on high incomes (in France, children and grandchildren have a legal responsibility to help elderly parents with their essential needs), you may not qualify for state-funded services. In this case, it may be a good idea to take out private health insurance to cover any care you may require in later life.”

you can also be lumbered with fees for grandparents too. But says it is children living in France on high incomes which makes more sense than chasing someone on low income living in Australia for estranged parents care. It appears it is income related. Still would not want to give my Dad a single euro though.

Zilla1 · 04/04/2025 16:28

Interesting information about the approach in France. Roman law there takes a forced heirship approach to inheritance so parents have to bequethe some of the estate to their children and can't disinherit - interesting parallel to enforcing financial obligations on children for parental care here, perhaps?

Poppins21 · 04/04/2025 16:30

Zilla1 · 04/04/2025 16:28

Interesting information about the approach in France. Roman law there takes a forced heirship approach to inheritance so parents have to bequethe some of the estate to their children and can't disinherit - interesting parallel to enforcing financial obligations on children for parental care here, perhaps?

Yes I think you’re right about why they enforce it. Not sure it would work in the UK as families are disjointed and blended. Maybe the law may change in France.

Zilla1 · 04/04/2025 16:39

Poppins21 · 04/04/2025 16:30

Yes I think you’re right about why they enforce it. Not sure it would work in the UK as families are disjointed and blended. Maybe the law may change in France.

It may change as society evolves. I might be wrong but recall hearing there have been some challenges to French forced heirship to the European Courts but without success.

coldandfrostymorning23 · 04/04/2025 18:04

Sharptonguedwoman · 04/04/2025 14:14

Money buys you choice. Your relatives can move if they don't like the place or you don't. CC funding means you can't.

We chose the care home and we are happy with it. Even if we did not, moving our relative would be extremely difficult, probably fatal, given their fragile mental and physical state.

Still no justification to charge vulnerable adults double (or more than double) the LA rate.

Poppins21 · 04/04/2025 18:14

There should be a law change that all residents must be charged the same so the LA pays the actual cost of care and self funders get better value for money. This should happen at the very minimum.

SheilaFentiman · 04/04/2025 18:16

For the LA funding, there is certainly an element of surety discount - an LA should have sufficient budget to always pay its bills and may also get a bulk discount. Obviously neither is true for an individual who self funds.

SheilaFentiman · 04/04/2025 18:19

It seems to me broadly similar to the “funded” childcare hours, which are rarely at full rate for a setting and can only be accommodated at all with some kind of private top up (whether that is achieved through literal top up charges - now more difficult - or by limiting the LA funded hours to ensure that each family also has to private pay some hours)

SheilaFentiman · 04/04/2025 18:23

Afaik the LA pays a flat rate for homes (£900 a week or whatever) and any one home could choose to accept some, all or no residents at that rate. But that doesn’t preclude the home from charging private residents £1000 for the basic room and £1100 for the en-suite or whatever.

I believe that once funds are down to the threshold, homes may well look to family to make up the difference, rather than keeping a place at the LA funding level.

Davros · 04/04/2025 18:39

My BIL is in a lovely care home, his place is state funded. It is run by a charity

MaturingCheeseball · 04/04/2025 19:27

The same system is in Italy. They pursue siblings etc for payments too. Yes, Roman Law too so children will always inherit. No leaving everything to the cats’ home.

What I would say is that care payments are generous, so that often people feel it is worth it to look after a relative, however challenging, given that you keep their pension too. It’s like bringing in a salary.

Davros · 04/04/2025 19:39

And it’s probably usually women doing it as usual

Kendodd · 04/04/2025 19:54

MaturingCheeseball · 04/04/2025 19:27

The same system is in Italy. They pursue siblings etc for payments too. Yes, Roman Law too so children will always inherit. No leaving everything to the cats’ home.

What I would say is that care payments are generous, so that often people feel it is worth it to look after a relative, however challenging, given that you keep their pension too. It’s like bringing in a salary.

I think that's an awful system.
Imagine you have abusive terrible parents and were then forced to pay money to look after them in old age. So in theory, if Dominique Pelicot ended up in a care home after prison, Gisèle Pelicot* *and his kids could be taken to court and forced to pay for his care?!

Papyrophile · 04/04/2025 21:03

I also think it is awful to have to be held responsible and forced to pay for the care of a biological relative you dislike. But it is equally unfair to the taxpaying public, who are not choosing to fund Uncle Frank, to be asked to pay what he costs.

It may be important to say here that most parents are not abusive, most do their very best often in difficult circumstances.

But @KenDodd, that is the Roman legal framework, it's been the dominant legal framework since 1815, in most of continental Europe. Anglo Saxon based common law (the English speaking world) works more pragmatically.

TempestTost · 04/04/2025 22:13

ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 17:59

Yes. Under the current system it IS a 'benefit'.

To put it absolutely bluntly, awful as it sounds, the NHS and Education exists because society as a whole needs a healthy workforce with a reasonable level of education. It benefits society as a whole to have this. Once the country has ensured those needs are met, it could be considered it has given people every tool they need to manage everything else by themselves.

Some people, however, can't manage these things for themselves, or in some cases they just don't. The government cannot afford to pay for everything for everybody all the time, but it's not terribly humane to let people die of starvation and hypothermia because they cannot house or feed themselves for whatever reason, even if some people feel that some don't have a good reason for not providing for themselves, despite the tools given. Those people get benefits paid for by people who may never need them. Because there isn't a lot of point asking people with no money for money. It's how we care for our most vulnerable. But we can't afford to do it for everyone. We can only do it for those who need it, and they need it because they have no money. It doesn't benefit you or I, though, in quite the same way a fit and educated workforce does. That's why it's a benefit paid according to individual need, rather than a blanket payment.

At the other end of the scale, the end we are talking about, the same applies. It doesn't benefit society as a whole to provide elderly care for everyone, regardless of financial status. But to leave those who have no money to fend for themselves would be an awful thing to do. So, like the benefits given for food, housing etc, we pay for those who have nothing, or not enough, using the money from the people who do.

I think the misunderstanding lies in imagining the NHS and State Education exist purely for our benefit as individuals. They don't. They exist to help maximise the number of people who can work and can pay taxes, which aren't all for benefits, but which also pay for our roads, our civic structures like bridges, etc, and the maintenance thereof.

If we want a society where everybody gets exactly what they think they pay for, regardless of what independent means they have, taxes would have to be about 80% of income for everybody working. Of course, we could do that. We could provide everything for everybody - food, shelter, health, education, elder care - and pay for that through taxation. But in order to do that, we need the majority not just working, but being paid more or less the same, otherwise you will still have people who will end up paying more than others. That system looks rather familiar to me. Sure I have seen it somewhere before and I don't think it ended too well...

The reality is that, fundamentally, I agree that we ought to change the system. But trying to dodge the system we have already simply takes the funding away to the point where the services disappear for ever.

Education is an interesting one because really, it is still fundamentally the responsibility of parents. They may choose the state education but don't need to, it's up to them what sort of education they provide to their kids as long as it meets minimum standards.

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