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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Fed up of reading threads asking how they can get out of paying care home fees.

891 replies

Nextdoortomeis · 01/04/2025 09:51

As per the title.
I'm sure lots of people would like the state to pay care home fees.
But we don't live in a fair world.
Both mum and mil paid nearly £70k in fees
yes I didn't want to pay but I also wanted them to get the best care in their later years.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:20

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 17:15

How is there other ways to help ensure your children don't need inheritance when you die?
If the vast majority of your money is tied up in your house. Which is only worth a £100-200k

Easy if you've plenty money. Not so easy if the house itself has been a massive stretch.

Probably thinks like private school, helping them a uni, giving them a deposit- maybe taking out one of those life mortgage things so you can help them regularly. So you max out the debt on your house.

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:20

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:08

Nursery isn’t the same.
There are free hours paid for by tax payers. None of that is available to the elderly. No free hours. No nothing!
Now if pensioners had 30 free hours if they earn less than £50,000 / year then that would be equal.
But there’s nothing
Lets also not forget that parents are young enough to still be working. So they earn year on year whereas the elderly are not of working age so everything is being taken out of savings or by selling what they own. No one paying nursery fees is selling their house or jewellery to do so.

Edited

Why are you conflating two totally different things and situations?
The government needs to encourage people to have children in order to pay taxes and provide services in the future. This is made even more important by the fact that the birth rate has fallen very significantly. Apart from that, the cost of everything for your parents, who haven't had the ability to build up wealth or (often) buy a home of any kind, has risen to unaffordable levels. This was not the case for their parents/ grandparents, who could often manage on only one salary, rather than two.
The care need is totally different. We are discussing people who assets paying for a service that they need. These are people who do have wealth, often because of the sheer good fortune of being born in a certain year and having benefitted from booms in housing and other assets. They have also had the ability to build up pensions and savings through a lifetime of work. There is no economic or political reason or indeed social or moral reason for poorer tax payers to support this group of people to enable their children to inherit lots of money. In fact, it is economically impossible due to current debt levels and demographic patterns.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:20

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 17:15

How is there other ways to help ensure your children don't need inheritance when you die?
If the vast majority of your money is tied up in your house. Which is only worth a £100-200k

Easy if you've plenty money. Not so easy if the house itself has been a massive stretch.

@ObelixtheGaul
do you see people standing in the street handing out over £3500 every month to random strangers because that is exactly what is happening to self funders money.
I know there would be plenty of passers by grabbing what they could for free……I also know there aren’t any that do it though.

CatusFlatus · 03/04/2025 17:21

Nevertrustacop · 01/04/2025 11:49

If you want to put your property in a trust for your DC, take legal advice, do it properly and do it now. Now. Ours was done as soon as DS was 18 and we were 50. Twelve years later he has forgotten all about it, we are in perfect health and hopefully he won't benefit for 20+years. And as it was all so long ago no one would ever challenge it as deliberate deprivation.

What reason will you give for why you did it then, should the question ever arise? Do you pay your son rent? Local Authorities aren't stupid (though plenty are incompetent so you might get away with it for that reason).

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:23

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:20

Probably thinks like private school, helping them a uni, giving them a deposit- maybe taking out one of those life mortgage things so you can help them regularly. So you max out the debt on your house.

You are assuming people have the cash.
Thats not what the pp was talking about as clearly in their post they said the money was in their home.
( value £100-200k )

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:23

As the other poster said, pensioners do get supported by the state with universal pensions, despite some of them not needing this @Kandalama. Other benefits are means tested. This isn't a universal thing.

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:25

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:23

You are assuming people have the cash.
Thats not what the pp was talking about as clearly in their post they said the money was in their home.
( value £100-200k )

Edited

But those life mortgages allow you to release equity in your home without paying anything back until you die- I think over 60. So you could provide support to the kids with that income until you might need care. Not endorsing it just saying a way. Especially if your wealth is in your family home.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:33

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:23

As the other poster said, pensioners do get supported by the state with universal pensions, despite some of them not needing this @Kandalama. Other benefits are means tested. This isn't a universal thing.

My point is.
If we means test some we should means test all.
So that would include PIP, UC etc. All means tested exactly the same as pensioners are. Including peoples homes if they are not used to capacity.
If an elderly person needs to move out they don’t need their home…ok. So by the very same concept if a couple need UC let’s look at how many bedrooms they have in their home. If there’s an empty room they aren’t using it so ….. they should have to downsize to free up that unused asset and live off that money.

You see
Doesn’t sound quite so fare now does it.
That should go for every single benefit too. It doesn’t though because it’s so much easier to just treat the elderly differently, it’s so much easier to take from them because they might not be around for the next vote anyway.

Im more horrified that the Government ‘gets’ this unfair treatment of some elderly people whilst people on Mumsnet don’t. Who’d have thought the Government ( that’s the Tory years from the dates on articles on the Govn website) have more empathy and understanding !

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:35

Nevertheless threads like this always end up the same.
Talk of Take take take ………just because.

Lets take advice from some on here as I’m sure we are all aware anyway Preparation is key in everything financial

dib dib

SheilaFentiman · 03/04/2025 17:37

Residential home costs (or the residential element of nursing home costs) do include things that the resident would have been paying for in another circumstances Food, heat, light, cleaning, maintenance, TV license, wifi. Everyone pays these throughout their lives (with help from benefits only if on lower incomes). All of these are before 'care costs' of staff.

And many people pay rent or mortgage without help from benefits, and the rental of a room in a care home will also have a base cost. If my mum couldn't manage her house anymore and wanted to sell it and use money on renting a bungalow, no one (?) would think the state should pay my mum's rent if she had £300k in the bank from a house sale.

So when totting up the costs on the basis of minimum wage care staff, don't forget all the above.

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 17:39

Cattenberg · 03/04/2025 11:36

Here we go again!

In MNet land, no one in the later stages of dementia ever enjoys telling long rambling stories in which their own grandparents are still around, or chats to other residents, or enjoys listening to live Christmas carols, or jokes about Dove shower gel being made of Doves, or laughs uproariously while balancing cushions on their head.

Everyone is always distressed, anxious or aggressive.

Edited

Have you ever actually seen someone with the later stages of dementia? Who actually died from dementia not with dementia?

No clue who they are?
No clue who the people beside them are?
Soap what's that?

And actually not saying very much. Having someone put food into your mouth.

Dementia is a whole lot more than just a bit of confusion and getting lost.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:44

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:23

As the other poster said, pensioners do get supported by the state with universal pensions, despite some of them not needing this @Kandalama. Other benefits are means tested. This isn't a universal thing.

Because they’ve paid National insurance contributions which, despite others saying it’s irrelevant, some of us were actually told when we started working that we would get a state pension.
How much people get is directly related to how many years a person has worked and paid in contributions. It’s not the same as using the nhs or UC or PIP etc. You don’t have to work 40years for UC entitlement do you!

Pensions and other benefits work in completely different ways.
the obvious exception is people who get pensions and pension credits etc when they’ve never worked. Those are akin to other welfare benefits.

TempestTost · 03/04/2025 17:47

ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 14:18

Because we can. Support is there for those that can't. Think of it like the benefits system, rather than like the NHS. You pay for it, but would only claim/be entitled to claim if you NEED it.

If either of us get there and despite all our careful planning, we simply don't have enough. Things happen, we might need care sooner or for longer than we imagined. That support will be there for us if we NEED it. I am really not sure why that doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to ME for the government to pay for my care if I can pay for my own at the end of my life. It's not like I am going to get better and need that money to live on in the future, is it?

I mean, I get people want to leave it to their children, but there are other ways you can help to ensure your children don't need that money when you die. I don't expect an inheritance, myself.

I just don't understand the desire to cling on to money you won't need where you are ultimately going, just for the sake of someone else not having it. Because that's what it comes down to, when all's said and done.

That said, I do think there should be an NI scheme for this. I just doubt very much that the types of people who are looking for ways to hide their money so their kids can inherit are going to be keen on the tax increase to do that. And there will still be people who haven't paid anything in, and we'd still be talking about 'why should they get this. They haven't worked' etc.

This is just it.

People are fndamentally being selfish. Despite claiming they'd be happy to pay higher taxes.

Well, yes, much nicer for you to pay slightly higher taxes and have other workers paying for your care rather than just paying for it yourself, that doesn't make you more moral .

People work their lives and put money away and have pensions, and that is in part so they can use that money they've earned to care for themselves in their old age.

If care is so expensive it can wipe out a whole inheritance, where do people think the tax revenue to replace that will come from - it will come from the people who have enough to give their kids a nice inheritance. So it will be eaten up another way.

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:49

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:33

My point is.
If we means test some we should means test all.
So that would include PIP, UC etc. All means tested exactly the same as pensioners are. Including peoples homes if they are not used to capacity.
If an elderly person needs to move out they don’t need their home…ok. So by the very same concept if a couple need UC let’s look at how many bedrooms they have in their home. If there’s an empty room they aren’t using it so ….. they should have to downsize to free up that unused asset and live off that money.

You see
Doesn’t sound quite so fare now does it.
That should go for every single benefit too. It doesn’t though because it’s so much easier to just treat the elderly differently, it’s so much easier to take from them because they might not be around for the next vote anyway.

Im more horrified that the Government ‘gets’ this unfair treatment of some elderly people whilst people on Mumsnet don’t. Who’d have thought the Government ( that’s the Tory years from the dates on articles on the Govn website) have more empathy and understanding !

UC is obviously means tested. The state pension is not means tested. Your argument is already not holding up!

Paying for a care service, which you are able to afford, is completely different to being unable to work because of an accident aged 30 and needing support. In addition, the costs of care are many multiples what is paid in UC, etc. I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse here in not seeing that these things are different.
You don't seem to want to see it, but the elderly have had and continue to have extremely favourable treatment compared to the young. If they are able to afford care and need the service, they should pay rather than expecting others to do so.
What you suggest about benefit testing becoming even harsher is already happening and will continue to happen. I would be surprised if this doesn't happen with universal pensions in the future too.

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:50

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:44

Because they’ve paid National insurance contributions which, despite others saying it’s irrelevant, some of us were actually told when we started working that we would get a state pension.
How much people get is directly related to how many years a person has worked and paid in contributions. It’s not the same as using the nhs or UC or PIP etc. You don’t have to work 40years for UC entitlement do you!

Pensions and other benefits work in completely different ways.
the obvious exception is people who get pensions and pension credits etc when they’ve never worked. Those are akin to other welfare benefits.

Sorry @Kandalama but there is no nice NI pot in your name. It was spent. Pensions are a benefit (a very expensive one) paid by current tax payers. Most people take out far, far more than they ever contributed.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:51
Dance GIF

Good luck with the downfall of Capatalism.
May we all wear the same grey suits

Meanwhile hopefully Rachel’s cuts will make this a farer country ( I’m not holding my breathe) so the elderly can enjoy their own savings to spend as they chose!!!

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 17:51

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:20

Probably thinks like private school, helping them a uni, giving them a deposit- maybe taking out one of those life mortgage things so you can help them regularly. So you max out the debt on your house.

And in the real world someone who's scrimped and saved to get their £100k house, who only has a small works pension and state pension.
Isn't going to be able to max out the debt on their house. What bank is going to let someone remortgage their house to give their money to their kids / grandkids. How do they service the debt?

The people with big money yes certainly will pass plenty on when they see a need. The people who can barely afford the house they have just can't.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:53

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 17:51

And in the real world someone who's scrimped and saved to get their £100k house, who only has a small works pension and state pension.
Isn't going to be able to max out the debt on their house. What bank is going to let someone remortgage their house to give their money to their kids / grandkids. How do they service the debt?

The people with big money yes certainly will pass plenty on when they see a need. The people who can barely afford the house they have just can't.

Exactly
but I’m afraid @Needspaceforlego me thinks people don’t understand how finance works for pensioners.

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:54

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 17:51

And in the real world someone who's scrimped and saved to get their £100k house, who only has a small works pension and state pension.
Isn't going to be able to max out the debt on their house. What bank is going to let someone remortgage their house to give their money to their kids / grandkids. How do they service the debt?

The people with big money yes certainly will pass plenty on when they see a need. The people who can barely afford the house they have just can't.

Those equity release mortgages for the over 60s

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:55

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:50

Sorry @Kandalama but there is no nice NI pot in your name. It was spent. Pensions are a benefit (a very expensive one) paid by current tax payers. Most people take out far, far more than they ever contributed.

🤣🤣🤣
im well aware there’s no pot or sock under a pillow

What there is is a guarantee that if you pay in you get £££ out once you reach retirement age.

The amount you get is linked to how many years you pay in. This is a VERY significant difference
Its not the same as other benefits !!

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:56

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:54

Those equity release mortgages for the over 60s

Maths maths maths!

Equity release on a £100k house ! Hello!

ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 17:59

nahthatsnotforme · 03/04/2025 17:00

Before you bang too hard, you haven’t said why you think I shouldn’t pay for some things the state provide and not others.

it’s not a ‘benefit’. No more than the nhs is. It’s something I pay for, along with nurseries, schools, etc.

Yes. Under the current system it IS a 'benefit'.

To put it absolutely bluntly, awful as it sounds, the NHS and Education exists because society as a whole needs a healthy workforce with a reasonable level of education. It benefits society as a whole to have this. Once the country has ensured those needs are met, it could be considered it has given people every tool they need to manage everything else by themselves.

Some people, however, can't manage these things for themselves, or in some cases they just don't. The government cannot afford to pay for everything for everybody all the time, but it's not terribly humane to let people die of starvation and hypothermia because they cannot house or feed themselves for whatever reason, even if some people feel that some don't have a good reason for not providing for themselves, despite the tools given. Those people get benefits paid for by people who may never need them. Because there isn't a lot of point asking people with no money for money. It's how we care for our most vulnerable. But we can't afford to do it for everyone. We can only do it for those who need it, and they need it because they have no money. It doesn't benefit you or I, though, in quite the same way a fit and educated workforce does. That's why it's a benefit paid according to individual need, rather than a blanket payment.

At the other end of the scale, the end we are talking about, the same applies. It doesn't benefit society as a whole to provide elderly care for everyone, regardless of financial status. But to leave those who have no money to fend for themselves would be an awful thing to do. So, like the benefits given for food, housing etc, we pay for those who have nothing, or not enough, using the money from the people who do.

I think the misunderstanding lies in imagining the NHS and State Education exist purely for our benefit as individuals. They don't. They exist to help maximise the number of people who can work and can pay taxes, which aren't all for benefits, but which also pay for our roads, our civic structures like bridges, etc, and the maintenance thereof.

If we want a society where everybody gets exactly what they think they pay for, regardless of what independent means they have, taxes would have to be about 80% of income for everybody working. Of course, we could do that. We could provide everything for everybody - food, shelter, health, education, elder care - and pay for that through taxation. But in order to do that, we need the majority not just working, but being paid more or less the same, otherwise you will still have people who will end up paying more than others. That system looks rather familiar to me. Sure I have seen it somewhere before and I don't think it ended too well...

The reality is that, fundamentally, I agree that we ought to change the system. But trying to dodge the system we have already simply takes the funding away to the point where the services disappear for ever.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:59

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 17:49

UC is obviously means tested. The state pension is not means tested. Your argument is already not holding up!

Paying for a care service, which you are able to afford, is completely different to being unable to work because of an accident aged 30 and needing support. In addition, the costs of care are many multiples what is paid in UC, etc. I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse here in not seeing that these things are different.
You don't seem to want to see it, but the elderly have had and continue to have extremely favourable treatment compared to the young. If they are able to afford care and need the service, they should pay rather than expecting others to do so.
What you suggest about benefit testing becoming even harsher is already happening and will continue to happen. I would be surprised if this doesn't happen with universal pensions in the future too.

Read my post!

UC does not means test assets
Thats the point of my post!
Ever been asked the value of your home !
Ever been asked how many rooms you have / occupancy rate.
NO
It is not means tested the way pensioners are.
Read my posts

Its interesting that no one on here ever comments on the issue of equality. The issue that some get there’s paid for by LAs whilst self funders aren’t even given the same LA allowance to start with and then be required to top up with their own savings.
That at least would be a little farer.

All happy to take UC. Even if people own a home

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 18:00

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 17:54

Those equity release mortgages for the over 60s

Have you seen how people get ripped off with those?
Go check them out.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:07

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:59

Read my post!

UC does not means test assets
Thats the point of my post!
Ever been asked the value of your home !
Ever been asked how many rooms you have / occupancy rate.
NO
It is not means tested the way pensioners are.
Read my posts

Its interesting that no one on here ever comments on the issue of equality. The issue that some get there’s paid for by LAs whilst self funders aren’t even given the same LA allowance to start with and then be required to top up with their own savings.
That at least would be a little farer.

All happy to take UC. Even if people own a home

Edited

Ps

by assets of course i do not mean £££ savings. I mean a persons home and chattels.

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