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Fed up of reading threads asking how they can get out of paying care home fees.

891 replies

Nextdoortomeis · 01/04/2025 09:51

As per the title.
I'm sure lots of people would like the state to pay care home fees.
But we don't live in a fair world.
Both mum and mil paid nearly £70k in fees
yes I didn't want to pay but I also wanted them to get the best care in their later years.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 18:08

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:59

Read my post!

UC does not means test assets
Thats the point of my post!
Ever been asked the value of your home !
Ever been asked how many rooms you have / occupancy rate.
NO
It is not means tested the way pensioners are.
Read my posts

Its interesting that no one on here ever comments on the issue of equality. The issue that some get there’s paid for by LAs whilst self funders aren’t even given the same LA allowance to start with and then be required to top up with their own savings.
That at least would be a little farer.

All happy to take UC. Even if people own a home

Edited

Well, no. Because you are still living in it. An elderly person in a residential care home doesn't require a house. It becomes a saleable asset. If you are on UC, your house isn't a saleable asset. You still need it to live in. If you sold it to downsize and consequently ended up with more money in the bank as a result, that money would then be subjected to means testing.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:13

ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 17:59

Yes. Under the current system it IS a 'benefit'.

To put it absolutely bluntly, awful as it sounds, the NHS and Education exists because society as a whole needs a healthy workforce with a reasonable level of education. It benefits society as a whole to have this. Once the country has ensured those needs are met, it could be considered it has given people every tool they need to manage everything else by themselves.

Some people, however, can't manage these things for themselves, or in some cases they just don't. The government cannot afford to pay for everything for everybody all the time, but it's not terribly humane to let people die of starvation and hypothermia because they cannot house or feed themselves for whatever reason, even if some people feel that some don't have a good reason for not providing for themselves, despite the tools given. Those people get benefits paid for by people who may never need them. Because there isn't a lot of point asking people with no money for money. It's how we care for our most vulnerable. But we can't afford to do it for everyone. We can only do it for those who need it, and they need it because they have no money. It doesn't benefit you or I, though, in quite the same way a fit and educated workforce does. That's why it's a benefit paid according to individual need, rather than a blanket payment.

At the other end of the scale, the end we are talking about, the same applies. It doesn't benefit society as a whole to provide elderly care for everyone, regardless of financial status. But to leave those who have no money to fend for themselves would be an awful thing to do. So, like the benefits given for food, housing etc, we pay for those who have nothing, or not enough, using the money from the people who do.

I think the misunderstanding lies in imagining the NHS and State Education exist purely for our benefit as individuals. They don't. They exist to help maximise the number of people who can work and can pay taxes, which aren't all for benefits, but which also pay for our roads, our civic structures like bridges, etc, and the maintenance thereof.

If we want a society where everybody gets exactly what they think they pay for, regardless of what independent means they have, taxes would have to be about 80% of income for everybody working. Of course, we could do that. We could provide everything for everybody - food, shelter, health, education, elder care - and pay for that through taxation. But in order to do that, we need the majority not just working, but being paid more or less the same, otherwise you will still have people who will end up paying more than others. That system looks rather familiar to me. Sure I have seen it somewhere before and I don't think it ended too well...

The reality is that, fundamentally, I agree that we ought to change the system. But trying to dodge the system we have already simply takes the funding away to the point where the services disappear for ever.

Re
Your last para
I think that’s key though to getting things changed
Lets face it people keep saying they can’t afford to buy, they can’t save any money because col, minimum wage etc etc etc. Eventually, and not to far in the future, there won’t be so many houses to sell for care.
There won’t be money for care homes to rely on other than from the LA

So
LAs need to plan now for that.

of note. It’s avoidable already if you do your research and commit. That’s why only just over 50% pay

TheodoraCrumpet · 03/04/2025 18:16

Cattenberg · 03/04/2025 11:36

Here we go again!

In MNet land, no one in the later stages of dementia ever enjoys telling long rambling stories in which their own grandparents are still around, or chats to other residents, or enjoys listening to live Christmas carols, or jokes about Dove shower gel being made of Doves, or laughs uproariously while balancing cushions on their head.

Everyone is always distressed, anxious or aggressive.

Edited

If that's your experience, I'm very happy for you. However, it's therapeutic to share less uplifting stories with people who understand what it's like to see a loved one go through more challenging times. Please don't liken that to silly MN tropes.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:17

ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 18:08

Well, no. Because you are still living in it. An elderly person in a residential care home doesn't require a house. It becomes a saleable asset. If you are on UC, your house isn't a saleable asset. You still need it to live in. If you sold it to downsize and consequently ended up with more money in the bank as a result, that money would then be subjected to means testing.

I explained in my pp.
People living in properties that are under occupied are equally
not living in it.
No one is asked to move out of their three bed when they only need a one bed in order to finance themselves

That’s an asset they are not using. !

We just need to look at the whole picture in a rational way, dissect and compare

Staceysmum2025 · 03/04/2025 18:18

Biker47 · 01/04/2025 09:55

Going to do my best to ensure my kids get everything I have and not have to spend a penny on care.

Well, the only way you can do that is to OFF yourself in good time whilst you still can.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:21

Staceysmum2025 · 03/04/2025 18:18

Well, the only way you can do that is to OFF yourself in good time whilst you still can.

It really isn’t
@Biker47 I would suggest you definitely take advice from a professional ! and do so as early as possible.

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 18:32

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 18:00

Have you seen how people get ripped off with those?
Go check them out.

I am not suggesting people take them out as I agree they are awful I was answering a post about how people could get a mortgage at that age.

SheilaFentiman · 03/04/2025 18:49

ObelixtheGaul · 03/04/2025 18:08

Well, no. Because you are still living in it. An elderly person in a residential care home doesn't require a house. It becomes a saleable asset. If you are on UC, your house isn't a saleable asset. You still need it to live in. If you sold it to downsize and consequently ended up with more money in the bank as a result, that money would then be subjected to means testing.

Exactly this.

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 18:49

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 18:32

I am not suggesting people take them out as I agree they are awful I was answering a post about how people could get a mortgage at that age.

So your deliberately coming up with stupid suggestions when the point I'm making is many people's entire assets are their small £100k house.

A value that could make a huge difference to the next generation of that family, but will be wiped out in a very short period of time in a nursing home.

People with plenty, will pass plenty on long before they need homes, people with nothing will get help from the off, people with a small asset get absolutely stung.

SheilaFentiman · 03/04/2025 18:52

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:17

I explained in my pp.
People living in properties that are under occupied are equally
not living in it.
No one is asked to move out of their three bed when they only need a one bed in order to finance themselves

That’s an asset they are not using. !

We just need to look at the whole picture in a rational way, dissect and compare

Edited

And you can use the comparison that if one of an elderly couple goes into care, the remaining one is not obliged to downsize even if they are in a 3 bed place alone.

But once the property is empty of both of them, it is an asset, not a home.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:53

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 18:49

So your deliberately coming up with stupid suggestions when the point I'm making is many people's entire assets are their small £100k house.

A value that could make a huge difference to the next generation of that family, but will be wiped out in a very short period of time in a nursing home.

People with plenty, will pass plenty on long before they need homes, people with nothing will get help from the off, people with a small asset get absolutely stung.

Exactly

Hope people aren’t coming on here to get advice though. When even those suggesting stuff thinks their suggestions are awful 🤯

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:54

SheilaFentiman · 03/04/2025 18:52

And you can use the comparison that if one of an elderly couple goes into care, the remaining one is not obliged to downsize even if they are in a 3 bed place alone.

But once the property is empty of both of them, it is an asset, not a home.

You could do.
However
My point if you read back is that benefits for others take no account of unused assets.

SheilaFentiman · 03/04/2025 18:57

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 18:54

You could do.
However
My point if you read back is that benefits for others take no account of unused assets.

You made a point about not having to downsize numbers of rooms to qualify for UC, my point is, that the same is true for care costs if someone is (under)using the asset of the home after one resident goes into care.

Do you see the paralllel?

With UC, if someone owns but doesn’t live in a house (because they have moved in with family or whatever), is the house considered an asset then?

Cattenberg · 03/04/2025 18:57

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 18:58

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:59

Read my post!

UC does not means test assets
Thats the point of my post!
Ever been asked the value of your home !
Ever been asked how many rooms you have / occupancy rate.
NO
It is not means tested the way pensioners are.
Read my posts

Its interesting that no one on here ever comments on the issue of equality. The issue that some get there’s paid for by LAs whilst self funders aren’t even given the same LA allowance to start with and then be required to top up with their own savings.
That at least would be a little farer.

All happy to take UC. Even if people own a home

Edited

I have read your posts. I just find that incredibly foolish. You haven't addressed any of the points I have made and just keep saying the same things.

This is a situation of (usually) elderly people needing care in a care home, meaning that they no longer need their home to live in. This is in no way similar to a family claiming UC because of a low income and needing a home to live in. The pensioners are also asset wealthy or they would not be paying. People claiming UC are very unlikely to be so; indeed they are on low incomes or no income. They can't have significant saving, for example.
I have no idea why you are ranting about equality. We don't have equality and we never will have. It is irrelevant to what is being discussed.

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 19:03

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 17:55

🤣🤣🤣
im well aware there’s no pot or sock under a pillow

What there is is a guarantee that if you pay in you get £££ out once you reach retirement age.

The amount you get is linked to how many years you pay in. This is a VERY significant difference
Its not the same as other benefits !!

Again, there is no guarantee. It's a benefit. You generally need to pay NI to get it, although it doesn't follow that these people have even worked or paid tax, claiming child benefit was enough! People who have not paid still get pension credit top ups, etc.
You were sold a lie as there is no personal pot; there is simply an expectation that younger people pay for your generation, as they do with all other benefits.
Your generation should count themselves lucky as younger generations will not receive the pension that you feel entitled to, despite having paid a lot more overall.

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 19:06

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 18:49

So your deliberately coming up with stupid suggestions when the point I'm making is many people's entire assets are their small £100k house.

A value that could make a huge difference to the next generation of that family, but will be wiped out in a very short period of time in a nursing home.

People with plenty, will pass plenty on long before they need homes, people with nothing will get help from the off, people with a small asset get absolutely stung.

What are you suggesting instead?

Do you suggest that those without any assets receive no care? This may happen in the future but it hasn't yet and would seem inhumane.
As far as the differing fortunes between those with smaller amounts and those with very large amounts, that is just life. It has never been fair!

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 19:08

SheilaFentiman · 03/04/2025 18:57

You made a point about not having to downsize numbers of rooms to qualify for UC, my point is, that the same is true for care costs if someone is (under)using the asset of the home after one resident goes into care.

Do you see the paralllel?

With UC, if someone owns but doesn’t live in a house (because they have moved in with family or whatever), is the house considered an asset then?

I don’t agree that people should have to sell up in order to release money to live off before they qualify for UC ( or in fact all benefits not currently means tested including PIP etc etc )
I don’t actually agree with this

My agreement or not is irrelevant though

I was making a simple comparison that
underused assets for the elderly are means tested in order to assess LA support
underused assets for the non elderly are not

If we are going to truly treat everyone as equals we should be doing exactly that!

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 19:10

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 19:06

What are you suggesting instead?

Do you suggest that those without any assets receive no care? This may happen in the future but it hasn't yet and would seem inhumane.
As far as the differing fortunes between those with smaller amounts and those with very large amounts, that is just life. It has never been fair!

I suggest everyone who needs care gets it.

We don't ask people to pay back their cancer care or any other treatments.
Why are we asking dementia patients to pay their care?

WhoMeMissYesYouMiss · 03/04/2025 19:11

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 19:10

I suggest everyone who needs care gets it.

We don't ask people to pay back their cancer care or any other treatments.
Why are we asking dementia patients to pay their care?

Who do you propose pays for the care?

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 19:12

It’s worth noting again as no one has made suggestions
What happens in the future when there are less owner occupiers.

People can’t afford to buy now so what happens when this generation of WAP need care.?

The current system of getting self funders to keep care homes going won’t last much longer

Any thoughts?

rainingsnoring · 03/04/2025 19:14

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 19:10

I suggest everyone who needs care gets it.

We don't ask people to pay back their cancer care or any other treatments.
Why are we asking dementia patients to pay their care?

There is a difference between NHS medical care eg chemotherapy for cancer and social care needs for those who are too frail to care for themselves. That's a service, not a medical need.
It is clearly unfair to make younger, poorer people to pay for social care (not medical care) of those who have (often) hundreds of thousands of £ worth of assets. It is also clearly unaffordable when many young families cannot afford a homes. It is economically destructive to suppose that the UK government can keep borrowing to fund this as well. This would only hasten the complete destruction of the £. We need to think and behave rationally, not just come up with a never ending list of wants.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 19:15

WhoMeMissYesYouMiss · 03/04/2025 19:11

Who do you propose pays for the care?

Obviously working age people paying taxes. That’s how the welfare state works

Im happy to pay to support all elderly people who can’t care for themselves
Just as I am happy to pay for education even though I never used it
Im happy to pay for cancer patients and all disabled and ill people

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 19:15

Needspaceforlego · 03/04/2025 18:49

So your deliberately coming up with stupid suggestions when the point I'm making is many people's entire assets are their small £100k house.

A value that could make a huge difference to the next generation of that family, but will be wiped out in a very short period of time in a nursing home.

People with plenty, will pass plenty on long before they need homes, people with nothing will get help from the off, people with a small asset get absolutely stung.

Not sure why you are being rude- I was asked how people could get cash out of a home and there is clearly a demand for these products otherwise they would not exist. And I think many people choose to use them as it’s the only way they can get money out of their home without moving.

I don’t think social care should be means tested. I think it should be funded maybe by an NI rate rise. Thankfully I don’t live in uk so if I ever need elderly care it will be provided at a high level.

Kandalama · 03/04/2025 19:18

Poppins21 · 03/04/2025 19:15

Not sure why you are being rude- I was asked how people could get cash out of a home and there is clearly a demand for these products otherwise they would not exist. And I think many people choose to use them as it’s the only way they can get money out of their home without moving.

I don’t think social care should be means tested. I think it should be funded maybe by an NI rate rise. Thankfully I don’t live in uk so if I ever need elderly care it will be provided at a high level.

Agree
Either a tax rise or an increase in ni ( which was just recently lowered 🤣)

Thats this countries future anyway as less will be able to pay

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