‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ in schools is everyday sexism

[putyourshoesonnow]

To me the terms ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ are unequal because ‘Sir’ is a term of respect whilst ‘Miss’ has less gravitas as it has connotations of youth, juniority and marital status and can be seen as diminishing to adult women.

This has bugged me for a while, as I think it is exactly the wrong message that young people should be receiving in school.

A perfect alternative may not exist, but surely we can do better than this?

YABU - Sir and Miss are fine, no problem here
YANBU - Sir and Miss are too unequal and we should seek an alternative

But presumably they have the same form tutor and the same subject teachers most of the time. So what’s so difficult about learning their names? Even if they don’t know the names of endless subs? Most kids are taking, what, 10 GCSEs? So maybe a couple more subjects in the years before that?

Feom this thread there are clearly plenty of schools that use actual names rather than sir/miss. So why can’t they all?

Such low expectations.

I’ve been a teacher in primary school for a long time. I’m either Mrs Grazia or Miss. I don’t mind being Miss at all. It’s a big school and it’s helpful for children who don’t know your name. They want to be polite so Miss it is.

Given the state of teaching at the moment it's more than possible that kids will have 20+ different teachers on covers / supply over the week. And it's just quick and convenient. It's not about low expectations or standards at all. Anyone gives me ANY sort of cheek or backchat and they'll be in serious trouble but I simply don't see it as disrespect or discourteous in the context of school to be "Miss" and given that it's me doing it, I think that's what matters. If anything I'm more offended by you insisting I MUST be upset about it and am somehow dimly missing some egregious act of sexism.

I much prefer Miss to You Bitch, that’s the only term I’ve ever objected to.

Using names isn't really the equivalent of using Sir or Miss. I went to a girls' grammar where we didn't use Sir/Miss, but the local boys' grammars that we did occasional trips or events with did. I used to think they sounded much more polite/respectful than we did. We'd say "Yes." They'd say "Yes Miss/Sir."
Names didn't tend to be added to every sentence in the way "Sir/Miss" was by the boys' schools.
I have a feeling that if Comps didn't use Sir/Miss but private/grammars did, people whose kids attend private/grammar would be saying how amazingly respectful Sir/Miss is.

Is it a regional thing? Miss and Sir are widely used where I teach (North West) but have friends in other parts of the country who aren't addressed like that.

I don't find "Miss" disrespectful or sexist at all. Where I am, all male teachers are "Sir" and all females are "Miss", and our students don't seem to think about whether one title carries more respect than the other. Their respect is to do with relationships, not title.

Sir and Ma’am at my school, equal.

I’m usually Mrs toast but sometimes get called miss, doesn’t bother me at all, I think half of the children presume it’s a shortening of Mrs rather than a dig at my lesser status than the Sirs, I also sometimes get called Mum or mrs other teachers name and sometimes Mr Toast, the only time it bothers me is when the head calls me Miss because he’s rarely there and can’t be bothered to learn anyone’s name.

There are way more than a dozen teachers at my Grandon's secondary plus TAs, MDS, office staff, invigilators, grounds staff and so on.

Does anyone still think that Miss is a lesser status than Mrs anyway?

Id certainly hope not. Being called Miss xxxx would be fine.
The comparison should be versus a teacher just being called ‘Mister’ or ‘Missis’ with no name. That sounds downright rude!

But my oncology gynaecologist is " Miss"

And that's a very respected job. In fact I think most female hospital consultants are referred to as Miss

And are their male equivalents all “Sir”?

Mr

So your example is completely not comparable to men being Sir and women being Miss in schools, is it?

@Ddakji I asked a few kids at school today about this debate. Their exact replies to "do you think Miss is less respectful or lower status than Sir" was "what? No"; "depends on the teacher how much we respect them;" and "it's not that deep".

Did you clearly explain to them that the two titles are not equal, though? That the equivalent of Miss is Mister? Do ask them and then see what they think, that women have a title in school that is not the equivalent to the male title.

No, because I don't agree that they are not equal. I asked them how they perceived the titles and if they convey less respect. You keep saying that they are not of equal status as though it's a fact and I don't agree that it is. Within a school context they are simply the gendered titles of address. After they had answered I explained why I was asking and that illicited the "it's not that deep" response.

Shes ’Miss Xxxx’, not a bare ‘Miss’ though.

But a bare "Miss" is fine in the context of a busy classroom. I always insist on "yes Miss" not just "yes" for the register every lesson. To me, that is a title (I am actually Miss but still did when I was Mrs) and is respectful. I simply do not see it as lesser than Sir and neither do the kids I teach.

Schools are the only place where they are considered equal. When we learned letter writing at school in the 80s we didn’t learn to write “Dear Sir or Miss”, but “Dear Sir or Madam”. You know full well that the equivalent male title to Miss is Mister. But somewhere along the line schools decided that it wasn’t right to refer to male teachers as Mister but fine to call female teachers Miss. Maybe ask your class to dig further into why that might have been. Or don’t, if you want them to agree with you.

It’s very easy to groom children into thinking stuff “isn’t that deep”. A few years in the adult world and the girls will certainly have learned the hard way how insidious everyday sexism is. It’s a shame you don’t seem to value critical thinking, but that does seem symptomatic of education these days.

@Ddakji oh give over. I teach critical thinking. I teach kids to focus their energy on actual arguments and analysing points made. The 80s was a long time ago and modes of address have lost a lot of the traditional import they once had. Language changes. I doubt many Gen Z and Gen Alpha would remotely see this as an issue and that means it stops becoming one over time. I don't deny sexism exists, I see it everywhere, both overtly and implied, but I don't agree that this is an instance of it.

I was about to say this, there’s a lot more staff than teachers! I am the first aid lady so not necessarily someone a pupil sees every day (well, some pupils maybe !) so they won’t necessarily know my name. I’ve worked it schools for 20 years, I don’t think pupils really think about it, we’ve been sir or miss for years . Doesn’t bother me. Actually if someone called me ma’am it would sound very odd! At one school where I was better known I was called Mrs G as in my surname. I quite liked that .

I'll take Miss over 'Bruh' which is how Year 4 boys seem to address everyone now regardless of age or gender.

I'm a female teacher - it honestly doesn't bother me at all. I literally never give it a thought!