To think SAHM with young DC deserve more respect

[CheekyFawn]

I work full time but currently on maternity leave looking after my 5 months old baby and a toddler DS who is 3 yo.
I just don't know where my time goes. Between breastfeeding baby, getting DS ready for preschool and tidying up the house, cooking meals etc, it just feels like there is no time at all even to have 5 mins of coffee break. I feel it was much better when I was at work couple of months ago when DS was in nursery that I used to get at least a lunch break for an hour or 30 mins at least or time between meetings to have a coffee and look at my phone in peace. I imagine this is I think how a day looks for SAHM with young DC and it's bloody hard. Many people just assume they are not doing much but I think they deserve more respect.

@DExpert
Exactly. It's either willful misinterpretation or some posters projecting sentiments onto OP's post that aren't there. She isn't even a SAHM for goodness sake, why would she start a thread suggesting that SAHPs should be respected more than WOHPs when she works herself? It would be bonkers.

I have genuinely never seen a thread framed like this.

I've seen plenty of threads where women express frustration over working long hours. I've also seen threads where working women are told "I'd never 'farm out' my kids to childcare," in which they lash out in response. Which isn't big or clever but who wouldn't defend themselves after being told they don't love their kids.

Full disclosure: I have also seen threads where WOHMs are not particularly kind or empathetic about SAHMs. There are nasty comments about how boring it must be and how they don't use their brains.

But I don't see WOHMs saying they deserve "respect" or "value" from society for being working mothers. I just don't.

That's a SAHM trope and it comes up a lot.

It's not about aligning with minorities. It's about the arrogance of stating things that should be a given - the assumption that is even in question. If someone said to you - "By the way, I don't have a problem with working mums..." What would you be thinking? "Thank you oh gracious one" or "F off?"

"That's a SAHM trope and it comes up a lot."

Well not on this thread. So why the need to keep labouring the same overreaction?

@Thepeopleversuswork
I never hear heart surgeons complain that they need more respect and acknowledgement from society but I hear retail workers often complain about this. I wonder why this is ... Could it be because heart surgeons are highly respected in our society whereas retail workers aren't? Of course you aren't so concerned about being respected if you are already being afforded a great deal of respect. WOHPs are currently afforded more respect from society than SAHPs. That's why SAHPS are more likely to start these threads. It's really not rocket science.

Sorry but you suggested in your post that a SAHM could be "switched out" in conversation with other "demographics" and used the example of people of colour and LGBTQ. Which implies to me that you feel SAHMs are people who are discriminated against and marginalised in society. Why pick those two examples if they are not relevant?

Some SAHMs might feel marginalised in society.

This is not the point though. It's the nauseating arrogance of stating -"I don't have a problem with ..."

OK ... but from experience, the reason people feel they have to caveat this is that talking about reasons why you don't want to be a SAHM tends to lead to accusations of being judgmental and / or bitter.

I've been down this road many times before: I have stated before as part of discussions on here why I wouldn't want to be a SAHM and someone will accuse me of being discriminatory or judgmental or jealous because I couldn't find a man to "keep" me. Or of being a grabby sort who is more interested in shoes and handbags than in children etc etc.

There are equivalent disclaimers from SAHMs who will sometimes say things I consider insensitive. For example "If you're a single mum then you have to do it (work) but personally, I couldn't bear to be away from my children." Or "you can always get a job but you'll never get the time with your children back". These statements are as much of a trigger to people like me as being told "I have nothing against SAHMS" apparently is to you.

I will say it sometimes because I don't want to be perceived as being incredibly biased. It's not meant to be "nauseating arrogance", it's just an attempt to show you are open minded. I think you are over-reacting, although I understand why.

I can understand defensiveness from SAHMs and women who work. I have been both, as have most women.

Fair enough to respond if someone is making statements about 'dumping kids in childcare to buy handbags' or that kind of shite. But this thread is not any of that. It's just a woman in the trenches of maternity leave ffs - we've all been there. So no need to overreact to imagined criticism where it doesn't exist.

Yeah... but that works both ways.

I swear to god through some people just see the letters 'SAHM' in a thread title and they're off on one.

When I was a SAHM it was way worse, but most of those posters suddenly disappeared. I can only assume they were banned, or perhaps they were run over by a SAHM with a pushchair or something.

Never mess with a SAHM with a pushchair 😂👏🏻🤣

Honestly? No, it wouldn't sound unhinged to me at all.

I would think that the poster had a point and I would feel pretty embarrassed about what I had posted in the first place. Not that I would ever post anything about WOHMs not being appreciated enough anyway.

You're just not getting my point. I have no issue with working mums saying that they're having a hard time juggling career and kids. I have no issue with stay at home mums saying that they're finding it relentless or difficult or whatever. That's all fine.

I just think it's weird and strangely entitled if anyone starts demanding more appreciation and respect for their own personal lifestyle choices from anyone who doesn't directly benefit from those choices - whether WOHP or SAHP or whatever.

Demand respect and appreciation from your own family if you want to, by all means. Whatever you do, it will presumably benefit them in some way, so it's reasonable to expect some gratitude. But don't expect me to applaud you for making a decision that suits you, whether that's WOH or SAH. I honestly don't care.

I applaud decent parents who look after their kids well, regardless of whether or not they woh or sah. I don't think I owe anyone any particular respect for how they choose to organise their domestic lives...it is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

I would think nothing of it.

Lots of people do have a problem with working mums fwiw. So, if anything, I would welcome someone confirming that they didn't.

That might be your perception. It isn't my experience.

It isn't mine either. Working fathers? Absolutely but working mothers? Not my experience at all.

I think this sums it up
Whatever women do they will be criticised.
Men are over praised for everything they do.

Interestingly I read recently about female verbal aggression and women mostly enact their stress and issues out on other women rather than on the real culprits -their boss, workplace or ... their partners.
It's dangerous for women to stand up to men, could lead to job loss, sidelining in the workplace -generally so they have developed the habit of taking it out on other women.
This is very prevalent in jobs/ areas where women are the majority
Nursing, teaching in particular.
Many threads on here women start off describing their appalling partners but then turn on the respondents
The SAHM vs WOHM debates are a classic example of this.
Why on earth do women feel they need to justify what they choose to do?
It's madness
Stop JADE justify/argue/ defend/ explain
Reducing the above reduces conflict massively
You do not need to justify your decisions to anyone
Lets ask men why they don't pull their weight in CC and domestic tasks instead

Spot on. Both myself and my husband have noticed this. I have had other parents directly criticise me honestly over the most ridiculous things (petty children’s disputes, birthday parties, layout of our home). These comments have happened when we are both there, but they have all been personally directed at me.

I got the message loud and clear- I am the one who is held responsible and accountable. This isn’t my husband’s fault, all decisions are made jointly, but he has agreed that we absolutely are judged differently.

Exactly @YesImawitch . Women who are not SAHMs and never want to be, but are perpetually in SAHM threads for decades, really do have to ask why. Especially if your kids are adults! It doesn't even matter what you're saying - why would you care enough to even engage? Who cares who may want appreciation, from whom, where and when? How does it affect you? Why does it even matter to you at all?

I mean, I work but it's obvious to me that SAHMs are undervalued in many ways. Children are a fact of life and someone needs to care for them. SAHPs (including dads if they SAH, or grandparents who may be with grandchildren) are doing the unpaid 'invisible' work that enables the paid 'visible' work of others to happen. If SAHPs are not with their kids day to day - it still has to be someone (nearly always women) who are chronically underpaid for the level of responsibility they have. They literally have other people's children's lives in their hands. What matters more than that?

In fact all caring work is undervalued - children, elderly, disabled, social care, nursing - the whole spectrum.

I have no issue whatsoever in saying that the job a SAHM does is more valuable than the work I do now, and the work of probably the majority of people. And the work that a childminder in a nursery does is far more important than probably the vast majority of jobs, when you consider risks and worst case scenarios. I think this is obvious. It takes nothing away from my parenting to declare that people in charge of our children, SAHP, grandparent or childminder, should be highly respected in society for their role. Not everyone can do it. Not everyone has the patience or the resilience. Those who can do it and should be applauded, frankly.

It's AIBU. Surely 99% of threads wouldn't exist at all in that case?

You also aren't a SAHM but are engaging with the thread so why can't others who aren't SAHM's? Or is it only those who aren't SAHM's but agree that they apparently should be applauded that are allowed to engage on threads like this?

AIBU wouldn't be AIBU if it was full of people just agreeing with each other. It would also frankly be incredibly boring, I want to hear different opinions and not an echo chamber.

@DExpert

Exactly Women who are not SAHMs and never want to be, but are perpetually in SAHM threads for decades, really do have to ask why

No one is “perpetually” on these threads. But if you are asking why working mums visit them I can think of several reasons:

• because the economics of how households are organised along sex lines is a topic of huge interest, discussion and relevance to all women and has broad implications for society
• because most women at some point feel judged and sensitive about the way they organise their childcare (on both sides of this conversation) so most women feel they have skin in the game
• because people want to be aware of prevailing attitudes as the consider how they raise their children
• because Mumsnet isn’t and shouldn’t be an echo chamber where people parrot validation at one another, it should be an enabler of debate and discussion. You don’t change minds and attitudes by just agreeing with one another all the time

I find the idea that working mums are expected to stay out of these hugely important debates a bit bossy and chilling to be honest. We have as much right to discuss this as you do.

@DExpert
To be clear I was referring to both SAH and WOH mothers.
Those who are frustrated and resentful about their partners lack of engagement, possible financial issues, lack of control either at home or in the workplace .
Women are at risk from men -1 in 4 relationships are abusive and so they vent their anger at each other because its safer.
Even if their relationship if ok its an unconscious choice to avoid blowing up the relationship.

Tell me this, why do you have to have been a sahm or currently have young children in order to have an opinion?? It's a bit ageist really. Being a wohm is something I have experience of, and if I want to discuss that, I will!

WTF has been "perpetually in SAHM threads for decades"??? Well MN is only in its 3rd decade for a start! Secondly, if I want to participate in a sahm or wohm when I'm in my 80s, then again, I will!

find the idea that working mums are expected to stay out of these hugely important debates a bit bossy and chilling to be honest. We have as much right to discuss this as you do.

It's not a discussion of the valid points you raise that's the issue, it's the sniping and defensiveness.
Also women who SAH have the right to make that choice for themselves whether you or others disagree with it.

@YesImawitch

It's not a discussion of the valid points you raise that's the issue, it's the sniping and defensiveness.
Also women who SAH have the right to make that choice for themselves whether you or others disagree with it.

So when WOHMs put their views across they are "sniping" and being "defensive", but when SAHMs do it they are "making their choice". OK then. No subjectivity or bias there is there. Nothing to see here.

It's self-evidently an issue which is divisive and highly subjective, I find it hard to believe anyone could struggle to understand that its subjective. And that's fine, that's the whole point of a debate, everyone has different views.

You can't then insist that everyone who doesn't agree with you is "sniping". That's not how discussion works.