To think SAHM with young DC deserve more respect

[CheekyFawn]

I work full time but currently on maternity leave looking after my 5 months old baby and a toddler DS who is 3 yo.
I just don't know where my time goes. Between breastfeeding baby, getting DS ready for preschool and tidying up the house, cooking meals etc, it just feels like there is no time at all even to have 5 mins of coffee break. I feel it was much better when I was at work couple of months ago when DS was in nursery that I used to get at least a lunch break for an hour or 30 mins at least or time between meetings to have a coffee and look at my phone in peace. I imagine this is I think how a day looks for SAHM with young DC and it's bloody hard. Many people just assume they are not doing much but I think they deserve more respect.

Neither is more worthy than the other

@Thepeopleversuswork People do start threads all the time on variations of working mums feeling disrespected - whether that be at home, in the workplace or judged in society for 'abandoning their kids.' It's the other side of the same coin.

For me personally having my two kids at home with me would be much, much harder than doing my job. My children are pretty high need, and close in age. I’m also not particularly well suited to parenting it turns out. But for others they really enjoy it/ have easier kids/ harder jobs. It’s totally individual which is why I don’t think you can make sweeping statements about what’s easier or harder. Though I do think once the kids are in school it’s different and I don’t really think you can be classed as a SAHM at that point, though many do.

I disagree with you completely.

Seeking external validation and approval from the tribe is absolutely part of the human condition. We have evolved to crave it and it's very hard to undo millennia of evolution in the way you suggest. SAHPs feel frustrated when their efforts and work is dismissed in the same way that someone would feel annoyed if they were dismissed as a 'pen pusher' by wider society. It is clearly hurtful even if they have a strong sense that their work is worthwhile. It's hard to swim against the tide.

It also is complete rubbish to assume being a SAHM is a privilege for everyone. For some it is in fact the only viable option available to them for a variety of reasons including they can't afford childcare or the children have SEN so it's hard to find a school or childcare placement that meets their needs. Pretending that it's just a load of wealthy women swanning around completely hides the realities of what being a SAHM actually is for lots of people who are living a life they would never choose for themselves and then have people calling them privileged just to add salt to the wound.

I’ll be 47 when I graduate (open degree, no specific subject) and fully intend to become an astronaut in due course. ;)

I haven't seen it unfold like that.

I have seen threads where working mums defend themselves in response to comments such as: "Why have kids if you're going to farm them out to childcare?" or "You'll never get the time back!" (No shit, Sherlock).

I don't see working mums starting these threads.

To be very clear I do think SAHMs get unfair criticism. A lot of people make casually nasty comments about how "boring" their lives must be or how they never "use their brains". I think these are every bit as bad as the "why do you farm your kids out?" comments and I will generally call it out when I see it.

But I have almost never seen working mums starting posts saying: "Why don't people value my role as a working mum?"

@Bumpitybumper

Seeking external validation and approval from the tribe is absolutely part of the human condition. We have evolved to crave it and it's very hard to undo millennia of evolution in the way you suggest.

Maybe, but SAHMs can get it from their "tribe", ie their family and friends. Why is it necessary for everyone else to put them on a pedestal?

It also is complete rubbish to assume being a SAHM is a privilege for everyone. For some it is in fact the only viable option available to them for a variety of reasons including they can't afford childcare or the children have SEN so it's hard to find a school or childcare placement that meets their needs. Pretending that it's just a load of wealthy women swanning around completely hides the realities of what being a SAHM actually is for lots of people who are living a life they would never choose for themselves and then have people calling them privileged just to add salt to the wound.

I fully accept, and I've posted as much on this thread, that there is a huge variety of women who fall into the SAHM bracket and that some women have no choice but to remain at home with their kids. I've never said its all "wealthy women swanning around". You said that.

But when people who do have a choice expect "respect" and "value" from people who don't, I just think why? Why should I celebrate the fact that you are able to choose whether you work or not? I don't have that choice. I don't regret it and I think I've done a pretty bloody good job with the chips as they fell for me. And I'm very happy for you to parent in the way you see fit.

But why should I celebrate the fact that you had more choices than I did? And why should you get to position this as a social sacrifice for the benefit of your children?

It's a bit like starting a thread saying: "I wish people respected me more for being a wealthy parent who can fund their child through private school." If that's what you do then I'm absolutely fine with it, but why should the rest of the world be clapping you for it? It's not something you've achieved through any particular hard challenge on your part. It's luck.

I agree. Almost all threads I've seen usually start with someone claiming that SAHM's are constantly judged, they deserve more respect etc.

I can't remember any threads that start with someone saying that they work, have children and need more respect.

@Thepeopleversuswork
I think you just don't want to get it. Nobody is suggesting that anyone is put on a pedestal. It's just affording people a basic level of respect and not undermining their efforts and the things they do. 'More' respect doesn't mean the OP wants more respect than other people get but she wants more than the very low levels of respect that society currently bestows onto SAHMs

Maybe that's because WOHPs are granted more respect. I was a SAHM for a while and now work. I have definitely noticed a shift in terms of respect. Nobody asks what I do all day anymore or suggests that they are doing all I do whilst holding down a FT job etc.

The irony is that I found my years as a SAHP way harder than I find working now. Horses for courses and all that and I absolutely don't regret my decisions but it's disingenuous to pontificate about why WOHP aren't starting these kinds of threads.

I don't know what to say. I personally think SAHMs deserve respect as much as working mums and I've never suggested otherwise. As I've just said, if I feel they are being unfairly criticised on threads I will call it out.

I just don't really know what "society" is expected to do about it.

Working mothers get judged too. Lets not pretend that isn't the case.

''Oh, I couldn't imagine leaving mine. I'd miss them too much''
''I wanted to raise my own children''
''Time is so precious. You'll never get it back''
''I wouldn't have had children if I couldn't raise them myself''
''Don't you miss them?''
''I value time with my children more than fancy holidays and expensive handbags''

and it goes on.

None of those comments have ever been said to DH.

I was a SAHM for a while and now work. I have definitely noticed a shift in terms of respect. Nobody asks what I do all day anymore or suggests that they are doing all I do whilst holding down a FT job etc.

But @Bumpitybumper surely you can see this is subjective? Women on both sides of this situation get judgment and criticism. As @SouthLondonMum22 has just pointed out.

For every SAHM who is asked "Don't you worry about what will happen to your brain?" there is a WOHM who is accused of working just to buy cars, handbags and shoes and ignoring her children. The judgment, resentment and criticism work both ways. They are both toxic and incredibly unhelpful.

I think women deserve respect whatever their work and childcare arrangements are. But again, I'm perplexed as to what exactly the SAHMs want from "society"? Shouldn't both "tribes" be afforded dignity and respect, regardless of how they make money and look after their children? Why the need for this long-running PR campaign on behalf of SAHMs?

I mean, I value my time with my children too, but I also value things like being able to pay the mortgage, which my DH couldn't do on his own.

If you say that the response seems to be that you need to live within your means, i.e. live in a smaller place or a less expensive area.

Well if we lived in a smaller place I wouldn't be able to say I "couldn't imagine" being the kind of mum who starts a thread on Mumsnet because she has a small two bedroom home and a 14 year old son and a 12 year old daughter and needs advice about building an artificial wall down the middle or a room or sleeping on the sofa, I'd be living it.

And if we lived in a cheaper area my children wouldn't benefit from being able to spend time with their grandparents every week and attend the excellent state primary school just across the street.

And if I didn't work I'm not sure how credible I'd be trying to tell my daughter to study hard and get good grades so she can go to university and get a great job later.

But to read those threads it would appear that many people think our children get no benefit from us working at all and we only do it for entirely selfish reasons because we love material possessions more than we love our children.

I'm not saying WOHPs don't get comments at all. I've had a few but in my experience negative comments about SAHPs are far more common. I guess it's a reversal from previous trends when SAHMs were the norm and working mums was seen as an oddity. Now the vast majority work so it follows that the role of the SAHM is questioned more.

Society is all of us, not some intangible concept. It's just about thinking before we speak and questioning our prejudices. I think we are broadly in agreement to be honest. Why seek to disrespect and denigrate each other when we don't have to? Ultimately most SAHMs go back to work and become WOHMs. Sometimes WOHMs become SAHMs due to changes in employment or to meet the needs of their kids. It's not a permanent label or status and it can change and flex over time.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom
And if I didn't work I'm not sure how credible I'd be trying to tell my daughter to study hard and get good grades so she can go to university and get a great job later
There is so much wrong with this, I can't even begin to unpick it. In a world that's going to be dominated by AI I would think long and hard about the assumptions that underpin this and how it's projecting a very narrow view of how a great job can be achieved.

This is a ridiculous amount of deflection and whataboutery when all that needs to be said is 'sorry you feel disrespected as a SAHM OP.'

As she even says herself - in her second post - 'respected' was the wrong choice of word - what she meant was that she feels 'unappreciated.' It's really not that hard to grasp is it?

But instead, people prefer to ignore or wilfully misinterpret this and bang on and on with this crap that she is demanding 'special societal adulation.' Ffs, just let it drop.

Any woman may feel unappreciated at any time for any number of reasons. How many posts about how society doesn't fully appreciate how women tend to carry the 'mental load' even when they are working? How many posts about office environments that don't properly respect or appreciate the needs of mums who may need to take days off for child sickness, school events. All this kind of thing all the time because it's true.

If there was a thread right now that asked "AIBU to think working mums should have more respect (appreciation)?" my response would be, "Too damn right." Full stop.

Not, "Well why do you expect applause and societal adulation just because you work and I don't?"

Who could be bothered with this?

Exactly.

It is often assumed that women work for material reasons only and that bothers me because it's never applied to men who work.

Well just saying it's wrong without even trying to "unpick it" isn't very convincing, is it?

The point is that if you believe that once a woman has children her proper place is at home with them, it's kind of a waste of time encouraging your daughter to achieve academic and professional success, isn't it?

And if my daughter had never seen me work, and hadn't lived the kind of lifestyle we could only afford because I work, the argument that she should study hard for her exams because it will help her to be successful in later life will fall flat on its face, won't it? She'll think, "What, like you? Because your degree is proving so useful to you right now?"

Here we go @MissScarletInTheBallroom . I suspect most daughters have more perceptive and nuanced views on life. My daughter is at Cambridge - despite the disgrace of a SAHM that was me. She can be whatever she wants to be - astronaut, circus performer, yes even a SAHM if I dare say so.

I'd be appalled if I'd brought her up to think poorly of women who take the decision to focus on their families for a few years. Urrgggh. Nothing worse than a jumped up sanctimonious twit for a daughter, don't you think?

@spaceisfree

This is a ridiculous amount of deflection and whataboutery when all that needs to be said is 'sorry you feel disrespected as a SAHM OP.'

I'm very happy to say "sorry you feel disrespected" to the OP, even though the OP isn't a SAHM and I'm not disrespecting her. I'm sorry to all SAHMs who feel disrespected if they feel disrespected. Nobody should feel disrespected for what they do.

I don't need to convince you and I feel that you will never be convinced even if I tried.

Being a SAHP isn't a permanent state. You could easily spend a year or two being a SAHP and return back to your career or retrain. I know because I've done this. My degree has undoubtedly helped me more in my new industry than it has in my original career. I want my daughter to be well educated and highly skilled so she has choices, flexibility and can fulfil her desires whatever they may be. That's my message to her.

Your daughter should be motivated by her own desires and drivers and not in a bid to emulate you. That is a recipe for disaster in a vastly changing world where many degrees will no longer be the ticket to a lifelong career in the way that they used to be.

My daughter is currently only two. She does, however, already benefit from many things I would not be able to provide for her if I didn't work.

In my line of work you would struggle to get back in after any significant time off. Even taking more than 6 months' maternity leave is considered long.

Thanks @Thepeopleversuswork .

Well that's the important bit isn't it. My husband appreciates me so I can ignore ignorance from others. The whole world can praise you but if your partner treats you like a maid / lackey etc it always feel shit