To think SAHM with young DC deserve more respect

[CheekyFawn]

I work full time but currently on maternity leave looking after my 5 months old baby and a toddler DS who is 3 yo.
I just don't know where my time goes. Between breastfeeding baby, getting DS ready for preschool and tidying up the house, cooking meals etc, it just feels like there is no time at all even to have 5 mins of coffee break. I feel it was much better when I was at work couple of months ago when DS was in nursery that I used to get at least a lunch break for an hour or 30 mins at least or time between meetings to have a coffee and look at my phone in peace. I imagine this is I think how a day looks for SAHM with young DC and it's bloody hard. Many people just assume they are not doing much but I think they deserve more respect.

If folk want to devote their lives to doing chores and bringing up children that's up to them. But why expect the rest of us to think they need to be to be respected and valued by everyone outside their own house, it's just silly IMHO.

It is important, but clearly not everyone does that.
I can't find the link right now, but children with 1 or 2 working parents have higher educational achievements and higher employment levels than those who have none. So having SAH parents doesn't necessarily lead to children becoming productive adults. It's not always about the amount of time parents spend with children, but the quality of that time, the focus and interaction, the activities they are doing and whether they build their relationship. DH and I work hard in demanding jobs, but when we are home our girls are our focus. We have quality 1 to 1 time with each of them, minimal screen time, our phones are left in a different room to try to avoid 'doom scrolling'. We probably only see them for 2-3 hours each day, but that is focused connecting time.

Exactly. Value comes internally. Of we are seeking external validation for our choices, we probably aren't very secure in those choices, and that's the real issue.

I think you're being rather disingenuous.

I don't think a child with two unemployed parents is necessarily enjoying the benefits of two SAHPs in the way that you imply. We all know families where the parents don't work but there is a huge difference between being in a household with an unemployed parent and being in a household with a parent that has actively chosen to be a SAHP and is dedicated to doing this. Your so called stats conflate the two. Also it is highly likely that a household with two unemployed parents is more likely to also be a household where the parents themselves are relatively uneducated. There could be genetic, cultural and social factors that influence the outcomes for the child far more than whether the parents work or not.

I think also making the quality over quantity argument is strange as lots of SAHPs are able to sustain quality time over the day. It's doesn't have to be quantity or quality and can easily be both. They aren't all sat doom scrolling or whatever. I imagine your girls are in nursery/school for the hours you don't see them where someone else is spending quality time with them for the majority of the day. The work associated with looking after your children throughout the day hasn't gone, it has just been outsourced. You may think this approach is better than having a SAHP but then others might disagree. There is no right or wrong but nobody is doing it all. Choices need to be made and these will bring different consequences to different people in terms of finances, happiness and fulfilment. It's as simple as that really! It is erroneous though to pretend anyone can have it all.

This is also disingenuous. We are social animals that have evolved to crave approval from the tribe. It is a fundamental part of our programming. I remember someone absolutely slating my department in one of my previous jobs and saying how little value it added to the organisation and I was incredibly wounded. In my current work, I find it very rewarding when people acknowledge my efforts and appreciate what I do.

Of course we should seek to be driven by our internal goals and validate our own decisions as much as we can but we are not robots. No man or woman is an island and nobody wants to hear how what something that they devote so much time and effort into has no value.

So what was 'clap for the NHS' about? Why do workplaces have award ceremonies? Of course external validation and respect is important.

Your social value impacts your material, physical wellbeing though. Regardless of how many affirmative mantras you chant.

I agree with the pp who pointed out that shifts in desired working patterns seem to indicate that people do see value in carving out time for parenting and other caring duties. Which makes sense, because they take time to perform. We do seem to cling to the Calvinistic belief that misery is the card that trumps all though, so even this is happening against a Greek chorus of "but my life is more difficult than yours".

Yes, it's obvious that some people believe that having a SAHP is better for the children, but based on the research and my own lived experience, I don't share that view.

If people value being or having a SAHP, then that's up to them. They are free to value whatever they think is important.

What the rest of us are objecting to is the idea that society should value their choices and accord them some sort of special respect for something that is essentially a personal choice.

Their belief that SAHPs are somehow superior parents doesn't actually make it fact.

Oh please. There's nothing but disdain and ridicule for men who whine about hard looking after their own children is.

I think this too. I think it’s a luxury that many can’t afford, to be a sahm, and when they are in school literally amazing ! All that time!
Sometimes it’s hard to put yourselves in other peoples shoes but the fact is working mothers know both sides with maternity and when they are off weekends or whenever they have days off . Of course they know what it’s like to be at home with kids .
I remember a sahm saying to me that it must be nice to drive to my work in the mornings , listening to a podcast, relaxing . It was actually really stressful as had to drop kids to school (with all that entails before with getting ready myself , making lunches , uniform , breakfast etc ), drive quickly so I could get in to work on time after drop off , thinking about all I had to do in my job and land there and start straight away. And then there’s traffic (stress) , having to bolt out of work to pick up. It just made me think how she really didn’t get it….Work for me is absolutely not a break.

Women need to stop having babies with men that can’t/wont step up with domestic work.

Clap for the NHS was meant to be the people having opportunity to thank the people who were trying to save lives. During a pandemic that was impacting us all.

what’s that got to do with SAHP? Who is at home looking after their own child. That has no impact on anyone else but that family?

work place award ceremonies are for employers to recognise the the staff that have had a direct positive impact on that particular workplace or industry.

if you are trying to equate NHS workers or workers in general to sahp, then who is in the role of boss? Who are the people being directly impacted you being a sahp. It’s the people in your household. So if they don’t value the person in the role of sahp that’s an issue that would be solved at home. Not by other people.

It would be weird to do ‘clap for sahp’ as it would ‘clap for working parents’. It would be weird to a ‘uk sahp awards’ like it would ‘uk working parent awards’.

If you need the validation you would get from working to save people’s lives, putting yourself at risk during a pandemic or want the validation of a workplace award then you would go work and work in the NHS. Or, alternatively, get your partner to hold an award ceremony or clap for you on the doorstep. Or would that feel strange?

The research isn't nuanced enough to really understand the impact that having a SAHP makes. There are a million different ways to be a SAHP in the same way that there are loads of different childcare options. You could have a nanny, a childminder, au pair, nursery, preschool... The list is literally endless. SAHPing is exactly the same and there are a million and one ways that you could approach being a SAHP and all would have varying levels of success. All of the SAHPs though are lumped together for research purposes and the data becomes rather meaningless.

I don't think anyone is saying that SAHPs deserve special respect but that their hard work and efforts should be acknowledged in the same way we acknowledge hard work and effort in society generally. I have just watched a professional valet spend two hours cleaning a very fancy car. I may have all sorts of views about whether I would pay for his work and if it could be done more quickly or efficiently another way but ultimately I respect the work and effort he has put in and see that it adds value to the owner of the car. It's fine to not want something for yourself but acknowledge that someone has devoted time and effort into something and that it has value.

My mum went back to work 2 weeks after I was born. They needed the money. She worked evenings and my dad worked during the day. I was always with a parent, but dad was at least as visible.

Mum did a masters while on mat leave with my sister and then worked hard to progress her career. Dad had a few years ahead of her so stayed where he was so that he could do school pick up. He did all of the domestic tasks and 90% of the childcare while mum climbed the ladder. He taught us life skills (I serviced my own car at 17 and re-wired my own house at 19) and took us to work with him when we were sick. Mum is still working at 70 because she can.

DH’s mum stopped working when she married and has never worked since. Had 4 sons, DH is the oldest. FIL “didn’t have children to change their nappies”. Legend has it he managed to scramble some eggs for the eldest 3 while number 4 was being born.

Luckily DH grew up to appreciate that this wasn’t optimal for kids. He wanted children more than me, and while he was tied into working away for the first 18 months of DD’s life, he has done at least 50% of the parenting since coming home. He runs a business, works really hard, earns really well, but will prioritise DD’s school run. I’m now the parent that works away and don’t give a minutes thought to worrying about whether DH can cope. I don’t plan meals or leave notes. He’s a fully functional adult, and as no aspect of parenting (post birth and breastfeeding) requires specific genitalia, DD is growing up seeing, as I did, that women don’t have to give it all up for children. Hopefully her standards will be similar to mine and she will have every opportunity available to her because childcare and domestics are absolutely not “women’s work” in her daily experience.

Absolutely, there are many variables. Not only with regard to childcare but also with regard to parenting styles, financial circumstances, parental temperaments, children's temperaments etc, parent relationships, working patterns, family support, parental education, parental health etc. The research cannot really adjust for all of these, but there isn't any reliable evidence that proves that having a SAHP is "better" than any other model. And my own lived experience leads me to believe, very firmly, that there is no single "best" model for raising children - it is simply about what is best for each family.

I respect engaged, loving, responsible and emotionally intelligent parents who do a good job of raising their kids, regardless of whether or not they SAH or WOH. I acknowledge any parent who has done their best to parent as effectively as they possibly can. I just don't think the SAH/WOH thing has any relevance with regard to this. I know great parents in both categories (and some not so great ones as well).

Yes, but this specific thread is about mothers isn't it? The life of a mother with young children will be very difficult to a woman who doesn't have children, especially a mother who has recently been through a difficult pregnancy, eg had to take lots of sick leave for pregnancy related issues, or had issues with mat leave policy/return to work arrangements.

I felt like I suddenly lost 'value' to my workplace when I became pregnant again. Having experienced so much resentment and lack of respect the first time around, I chose not to return after second baby, like so many other well-qualified, experienced women in my field. It's as if they expect mothers to put work first and family second, or assume everyone has a full time nanny.
There was no option to return part time or on flexi hours without moving to a different site. After more than a decade working for NHS, I decided to become a SAHM. Which meant giving up my profession. Some mothers do make it work, usually those with lots of family support, or those in management roles. But I know of very few mothers who completed the lengthy return to work process, after 2 or more years out of their profession.

I also have a problem with capitalism. 😊 But within that I have a problem with women being the unpaid tools of capitalism. So many times I read on here SAHMs saying their husband couldn't do his job without their role. So, unless we assume all these DHs are incompetent, in roles beyond their capabilities (which i think is probably true for some!), we are left to conclude that the jobs themselves are so onerous that the worker needs another full time adult to support them to do them. By making the long hours, poor work/life balance and excessive workloads tolerable, arguably the SAHM inadvertently facilitates the exploitation of the worker.

There is an alternative explanation that you haven't mentioned, and that is that the women who claim that their husbands couldn't do their jobs without a SAHP at home might be overestimating their own contributions.

There are very few jobs which would genuinely require the postholder to be supported by a SAHP.

I don’t think SAHMs need any particular respect, just like working parents don’t need respect from SAHMs. Of course it is wrong to disrespect someone simply because they are not earning a salary or vice versa.

I would like to see more families achieve a balance where men and women work, have equal engagement at home, and their careers or home lives don’t suffer due to a lopsided work/life balance.

I know some SAHMs where the husband is away working all week and misses out on a lot of time with the family. I understand why that may be the best option financially, but fathers who are involved at home have so much to offer their kids and I think too much has been left for mums to carry historically. I wonder if dads were available and involved throughout the week, fewer boys may look to Andrew Tate as a role model? I would like to see society build stronger families and equality at work is part of this.

Just to add- we have not achieved this perfect balance in our family! We both work and are constantly juggling family and kids. I regularly have to accept that sometimes home life or work life is not perfect. I would love more support and less pressure. But the world I would like to leave behind for my children is a more equal and balanced one, where mums and dads have equal roles at home and at work. Now, did I just see a magical unicorn fly past…?

In some cases you may be right.

One of the reasons I decided to be a SAHM was to take the stress and pressure off my DH, who needed to focus on his career to progress upwards. Someone in higher management or a position that needs their full attention can't keep taking days off to pick up ill kids from nursery/school, or leave work early for school runs, kids pervformances, school holidays. His earning potential was far higher, so we prioritised the higher income.

In an ideal world, women would be able to take leave flexibility for pregnancy, post natal period, childcare, caring for multiple young children... without it affecting our careers or earning potential. But I don't see this happening.

I haven't pretended that. I said in my post it benefits the man and the individual woman who is doing it because its her preference. My point was that it doesn't benefit anyone else. Which is absolutely fine. I'm all for people being as happy as they can be and prioritising their own wellbeing. But this thread is asking me to go further than simply be happy that some women enjoy SAH, its asking me to afford them particular respect for the role because its harder/better for children/valuable to wider society; and I don't believe that it is. If all we were being asked to do was acknowledge that some families are happier with a SAHM, there would be no argument from me.

My DDs dad was in the Army and away much if the time. I wasn't a SAHM though. Still managed to hold down a full time job.

And working women can't keep taking endless time off for things like school performances and school runs Leave us needed for sick days and holidays that are not covered by playschemes.

But I can see why it worked for you.

It may well be a little of all three. The man's entire career is unlikely to be dependent on his wife's facilitation, but by being enabled to put in excessive hours he can possibly succeed to a level beyond his competence were he in other circumstances. If he can be Johnny on the spot to his bosses whistle, safe in the knowledge he has no other calls on his time, then he will be at significant advantage, and can achieve through his excessive hours and last minute hoop jumping what he might not achieve on his merit.

Several PPs have referred to being a SAHP as job but it really isn’t. It’s a lifestyle choice for most. Most importantly, the choice works for you and your family.
You have chosen to have a child and between you and your partner/co-parent you have responsibilities to that child. There is much joy and drudgery in raising a child.
It’s a more extreme version of having a pet dog. There are those that are paid to dogsit and dog walk - that’s their job. The owner’s job is not raising the dog, it’s their lifestyle choice to bring a dog into their home, for which they are now responsible.

I certainly don’t think that WOHP have two jobs - the one that makes money and the other that burns through it.