The most shocking thing about the maternity enquiries is how unshocked I am.

[GreyandWhiteBathMat]

Reading this this morning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyn8n3nyrlo

Which prompted me to read East Kents enquiry, I'm maybe a third of the way through. While I am angry and frustrated reading it nothing has shocked me. It's completely in line with my own experiences in my local (not under enquiry) maternity ward 25 years ago. The arrogance, dismissal and casual cruelty of the midwifery staff there is well known. I didn't have issues with obstetricians who were, on the whole, great if not particularly visible.

Why is this? Why are these features so common? I lean towards it being a long standing issue with midwifery education. It just seems so pervasive in a way I haven't seen across other services.

People enter into the profession that do not care. There is also a massive bullying culture within nursing in general in the NHS, a general decline in taking pride in one's work ( across lots of different jobs) and maintaining standards. Couple that with a lack of staffing and it's a job that can feel overwhelming and dangerous. Those that do care end up with burnout and leave. This leads to further shortages and places on a degree are given to people thst are wholly unsuited to the profession and who should have been weeded out at the interview stage.

You have to be able to advocate for yourself and I've seen a distinct lack of care for women of colour and those from ethnic minorities unable to speak English to a high standard unable to explain what they needed or being taken seriously. I appreciate that not being able to communicate well in English makes a midwife or hcp job harder but basic empathy, dignity and respect should be shown to all. Call it what you like but unconscious bias or racism absolutely does play a part!

When I went on for dd1 I was in for 10 days before she was born and had to help when one woman had her buzzer being ignored.I heard a conversation between two midwives about her being a 'drama queen'. Poor woman went from 1cm dilated to active labour and almost gave birth on the ward, she was buzzing because she was in pain. I complained to PALS about what I had seen and about my own care too. It's so easy to get fobbed off but I'm a hcp to and kept at it and my experiences with ds and dd2 were much better as a result. We are conditioned as women to not create a fuss, protect the NHS, be grateful if we all out of hospital with a baby but that doesn't mean we have to accept substandard care.

I have been similarly unsurprised, having also experienced a total lack of empathy from multiple midwives and nurses.

I had great faith in the NHS until I gave birth. It was surprising how difficult it was to get any kind of medical attention even as a patient.

Thanks for responding. I have a lot of professional experience on wards but my observation is cultures differ greatly between wards. The issues on maternity wards seem to be replicated up and down the country.

On your second point about self advocacy, I think that's a huge factor. I'm excellent at self advocacy most of the time. The only time health professionals could have gotten away with it was in maternity when I was too emotional and stressed to challenge or complain after. And the majority of women have men, who on a whole are going to defer to women on this.

I am a midwife although I no longer work in the NHS. The vast majority of midwives go into the job with the best of intentions but boy, the machine grinds you down. 12 hour shifts without a break. Life and death situations at 4am after no sleep. Looking after 9 women and 9 babies on the postnatal ward, so caring and writing notes for 18 patients per shift……. It was honestly the hardest thing I have ever done. And all for less than £40k a year. And yes, there is a bullying culture. Senior midwives are horrible to junior midwives. Doctors can be horrible to midwives. When I was being bullied by a senior midwife, I asked to speak to the Consultant Midwife about my concerns and was told to be more resilient. A friend who worked at a different hospital said they made a confidential box for people to write down concerns about their unit. She said all the midwives were too scared to put anything down in writing in case it was traced back to them….. I left and I think lots of other lovely midwives do too, leaving the meaner, more bitter people there as they fit better into the system. I think the whole system needs to change. Units need to run training sessions between all staff discussing supportive working practices. Staffing needs to be improved (more money) and bullies need to be disciplined once they have been reported. It really is a sad state of affairs.

It's one of the reasons I don't have children. Zero trust in being treated humanely.

Poor levels of staffing and chronic underfunding is my guess. I gave birth at a hospital that was rated ‘requires improvement’ by the CQC. I only encountered one midwife who was completely unpleasant. Overall, the unit heavily relied on student midwives and maternity support workers to run. There were more newly qualified midwives than experienced.

I was an inpatient due to antepartum haemorrhaging and required regular monitoring. I often had days where I’d not see anyone other than the cleaner for several hours, which defeated the purpose of me being in for continuous monitoring. Things were missed such as not being given an iron transfusion and checks being carried out. The antenatal care from the community midwives prior to hospital admittance was terrible. Bloods and urine samples missing. This was unknown until my 1st haemorrhage and they needed to know my blood type to prep for a transfusion (which I thankfully just avoided) and there was nothing in my notes. They hadn’t been done.

I wouldn’t say overall the hospital maternity services were terrible, but the lack of staff was clearly a major issue. My experience may have been a bit biased as my mother was there regularly and eventually someone clocked/recognised that she was a maternity services assessor for the CQC, so things stepped up after that. Post section and PPH, hours later I began to crash. Thankfully, my mum was there as there were no midwives around. I got early intervention. Without her there, I’d have collapsed. She had to argue for me to get pain relief and have my catheter drained. It was overflowing when she arrived. She had to do it herself at one point as my husband had asked and was told they were busy. My mum wasn’t there the day of discharge, so I was discharged without Hb levels being checked and was given iron tablets, when I in-fact needed a transfusion.

I don’t blame the staff for a lack of care. It was purely a lack of staff. There were not enough midwives generally and a lack of experienced staff. They’d schedule way too many c-sections during a day in addition to vaginal births, they couldn’t cope with the numbers.

In days gone by, midwives HAD to be qualified nurses before they could train. Now it’s a degree rather than an experienced based qualification profession. This may cause the lack of compassion that people experience, as they’ve not had training in bedside manner. That and having been a nurse first, would give a broader range of knowledge and experience.

There seems to be a very strange attitude towards pain from some midwives. I wonder if it goes all the way back to the deeply ancient roots of the profession (or indeed the Judeo-Christian notion that labour pain is punishment for all women.) The focus on unmedicated birth at all costs has led to the loss of women and babies’ lives. It’s this idea that pain is virtue, almost, and anyone who wants help to manage it is a whiny drama queen.

I think the NCT and Gaskin et al have a lot to answer for on this as well.

During my birth I was in the most extraordinary pain. It surprised me, as someone with a high pain threshold. I was told I wasn’t in active labour or even having contractions by one midwife. Another said I was only 1cm dilated. I kept yelling for a doctor until eventually one came and when I insisted on a vaginal exam I was 6cm.

I received an apology for having to wait an extra hour for my epidural.

I had a complicated birth and it was in the main part handled well by a brilliant team of doctors and midwives. But these experiences also gave me a shocking insight into how it must feel to not be believed or listened to when in labour.

I staggered, pushing my baby in his goldfish bowl the morning after a long long labour, episiotomy, failed ventouse, then forceps delivery and stitches, as I needed a cup of tea (partner had to leave after I went to the ward in the early hours so was on my own, weak and shell shocked tbf). I passed an older nurse, minding my own business with tears rolling down my face. She rudely told me ‘you need to pull yourself together’. This came out of nowhere, I didn’t approach her. I was and still am shell shocked. I told no one, I think I was so shamed.

So the unkindness (that’s a soft term for it) went unchecked. I later heard she was well known for it. I feel so sorry for that young woman I was and so cross now I’m older that I didn’t afterwards when I was a little recovered advocate for myself, challenge her practice and save others from experiencing similar treatment and her to answer for her complete intentional attack. That she went out of her way to say that when I was just passing her and so vulnerable was cruel.

I so wish I could have a conversation with her today and tell her how it impacted me and still does when I think about it because I let it happen and I think it contributed to the post natal depression I experienced and of course me 24 years later beating myself up whether I was a good enough mum to my little boy as a result of it.

This was happening 25 years ago.

First baby, I went to the maternity ward after being in slow labour for 24 hours. I was checked, spoken to like I was a piece of dirt as if clearly turned up too soon. I was taken to a ward where there was a bare mattress. Told to make up my own bed by taking sheets from an empty side room. DH was with me but they sent him home - they weren’t willing for us to use the side room.

Midnight, after having lots of pains but totally being ignored my water broke so i called the buzzer, no response whatsoever so i walked to the nurses desk as they were all sat round that laughing and making noise. I was shouted at for making a mess on the floor with my waters!

Sent back to bed, they were so nasty and impatient with me, one of them came and at 3am they examined me as I was in a lot of pain and was told baby was back to back and his head was swelling.

Again I was left, terrified, desperately thirsty but at this point I was too scared to annoy them any further. I walked back and fore to the loo all night, waters draining, I had to walk past the nurses station each time and not once did any of them ask whether I was ok.

7am and I was I tears, desperate for them to call DH to come and be with me. Cue more eye rolling, was given a TENS machine which did nothing.

DH came and suddenly they were all smiles, I was taken to the delivery suite where at 6pm after a failed ventouse and forceps my 9lb son was born.

It affected me for years.

I’m so sorry that happened to you. What a horrible cow. I’m sure you’re a wonderful mum. Please write her name (or “horrible midwife”) on a piece of paper and burn it! You need to expunge her from your thoughts!

My midwife was absolutely horrible. It was such a shame because everyone else in the hospital was lovely. She was laughing at me because i was in so much pain i was crying she said "oh great another one who thinks shes the first person to give birth". When I was giving birth she said "push the baby out or il cut you" at least ten times my husband told her to fuck off and hed deliver the baby himself. After the baby was born she told me she would be informing the social work department as she thought I wouldn't be able to manage a baby as I was such a drama queen in labour. Id never have another child as it was such a horrendous eperience. I wrote a complaint but never got a response.

If anyone’s watched or read this is going to hurt it’s enough to make you think twice about having a baby

It doesn't surprise me at all. I gave birth in May last year I really wished I'd moved my care to another hospital - it was the RVI in Newcastle upon Tyne. This was required improvement by the cqc and the birthing centre closed at the time but my concerns were dismissed by community midwives and my own family so I stayed there to my regret

I didn't have a great time giving birth I wasn't listened to or supported during it. I have been left with two prolapses and I certainly believe issues with my labour have played a part in this. But the care on the postnatal ward was horrible. I have never encountered so much unkindness and rudeness. I complained I doubt much will change.

I very much want a second child but the thought of giving birth in hospital again fills me with so much anxiety. I hope I will be able to advocate for myself better next time.

I also think NCT puts so much pressure for a natural birth too.

It was DS’s birthday yesterday, and more than 20 years since his birth I still remember how bloody awful my treatment was, both during labour and the hell that was the post natal ward. The utterly dismissive attitude of the midwives, the rudeness and disdain of the nursing staff afterwards.

The hospital I gave birth in was knocked down and relocated quite a few years ago now, the new hospital still requires improvement according to the latest inspection.

DS is an only child because of my experience.

It annoys me when I see news reports on the declining birth rate and what can be done to improve it. Perhaps stop damaging women and babies during childbirth and start listening to the reasons why women are so reluctant to have children.

Doesn't surprise ne at all. When my first son was born nearly 26 years ago, the person delivering him majorly fucked up and he was left disabled as a result.

The hospital lied and lied and lied, covered everything up, 'lost' notes, did everything possible to avoid taking responsibility.

We sued and won but it took YEARS and they lied up to the end.

My children are adults and I have to agree that the attitude when I went into labour with my first child was shocking. I was told ‘If you can’t cope without pain relief now, then I don’t know how you will cope later.’
They later tried back peddling after my baby was born with a total of 5 professionals in the room, including another senior midwife, the registrar and 3 other doctors. I had to have forceps. It should have been an emergency c section but the anethetist was called to an emergency, only 1 per hospital back then and the maternity wing was not the priority.
The nasty midwife disappeared from the room when things started to go wrong to be replaced by more senior staff. My baby was back to back and suffered shoulder distortion too. All in all an extremely difficult birth. Oh and labour lasted 23 hours. The doctor gave me an epidural and started to prepare me for an emergency c section. Yet that vile midwife refused to give me so much as an aspirin with her sneering attitude.

That "if you can't cope now how will you cope later?" along with another few experiences is the reason I don't believe the issues in maternity are the same across the NHS or a result of staffing and pressure.

The amount of women I have heard saying some variation of the above (down to the same phrasing) is amazing. Also midwives refusing to check dilation is another.

One I experienced which I know a few other women did was midwives acting like I was being a martyr for refusing pain relief (I wasn't being brave, I wasn't in pain!).

That comment above from a midwife about "the first woman to give birth" is telling. It seems common among maternity professionals to lose sight of the fact that just because they see births every day, that doesn't make the pain or fear any less significant for any of the women giving birth. In a humane system severe pain would be treated as an absolute emergency, rather than fobbing people off with waiting a bit longer or routinely having one anaesthetist on shift.

None of it surprises me either, sadly. DD will be 10 in August and the few days before her birthday will probably be filled with anxiety, nightmares and flashbacks for me as they have been every birthday so far.
Callousness and incompetence from midwifery staff nearly killed us both before she was born, their incompetence nearly killed her afterwards when we were discharged way too early. Only once throughout the entire ordeal did I experience anything that could be described as ‘care’ and I will remember that nurse and be grateful for her for the rest of my life. I hope the system hasn’t ground her down and made her as callous as the rest of them

I have never been treated so unkindly as I was by the midwife who delivered my first baby. We did want 2 children close together but it took me 6 years to get the courage to have another.
We went to a different hospital and I had the most amazing, kind midwife and fantastic care on the postnatal ward. They were both busy units but the attitude by the staff were chalk and cheese.
I've had a lot of interaction with many NHS staff over the years and I do wonder why some staff work in healthcare - they really seem to dislike people.

At Birmingham women’s hospital in 2021 I had an awful experience. At night I could hear the midwives at the desk slagging off us new mothers on the postnatal ward, including gossiping about me. I was post emergency c section and meals weren’t brought to you at the bedside , the food trolley was down a long corridor that you had to get out of bed (and presumably leave your newborn) to go queue for food. I didn’t even realise this was the system so missed dinner the first time (I was in 5 nights). I’m a doctor and have worked in surgical wards across England and Northern Ireland - I have never ever seen patients after major abdominal surgery be required to get out of bed and leave their hospital bay to queue for food like a school canteen. Whilst I appreciate it’s not ‘dangerous’, it just seemed reflective of the disdain for the new mums.

At medical school in London I witnessed there was a lot of bullying from the qualified midwives to the medical students who were on placement in obstetrics. My husband is an anaethetist and he experiences a lot of pushback from midwives even over relatively minor things, there’s a lot of animosity between the doctors and the midwives which I’m sure adds to unsafe outcomes. Just want to add NOT ALL midwives etc and of course there’s lots of obstetricians/anaethetists who are twats. But that has been our experience working in hospitals across the country

Yes I too had to get out of bed and walk down a very long corridor to get some breakfast. I asked the midwife if someone could help me as I could barely walk from the aneasthetic and stitches and she said no, get it yourself. My the time I had carried my tray back, the cereals were all over the tray and I was shaking so much. I could feel other patients staring at me as if to say wth is that woman being made to walk carry her own breakfast, look at the state of her. I can say with authority that if I had been a man, I would not have been treated so poorly.

It is certainly partly the staffing which is dire. I know of a Labour ward who regularly run on half the staff they should and this is a ‘good ‘ Labour ward not in a failing hospital. It’s been poor for years. 22 years ago as a student I walked onto a 40 bedded ward when only one midwife turned up for a shift with me. She walked out. It’s not got better. Overall it’s worse.

when staffing is so poor there is no appetite to deal with staff who are cruel, unsafe, inappropriate. When they are dealt with they move onto agencies and sometimes the system is so desperate it has to take what it can get. Better a warm, officially qualified body than no one.

So you have staff who are not the staff you want and a lot of newly qualified staff. The culture is dire. The better staff who can’t just leave (and they do leave, less than 5% of midwives who qualify are practicing 5 years later) move to specialist posts, community and often management. There are managers in midwifery, heads of midwifery who couldn’t do a shift on a ward.

There are pockets of other issues I know Shrewbury had it’s natural birth at all costs obsession and that has happened in pockets elsewhere. However overall I don’t really see that now. Once (some) midwives cared passionately about birth and choice and you certainly got the ones who pushed the pool over an epidural sometimes in ways which weren’t ok. I don’t see that now, mostly now I see midwives who no longer care, who are done. Who stay because they are trapped. Who don’t believe in midwifery anymore and I see students who are trained by these midwives coming in without the passion they should have.

and I see junior doctors who cry on the postnatal ward because they are overwhelmed without support and so they are dismissive, they miss things.

I have gone now, very recently. Maybe I”ll be back, maybe not. The issues with maternity culture are so complex and long standing it is difficult to see how they’d change. The staff left behind have low energy and low motivation, it will require passion and drive, where from?

My own personal experiences of maternity care weren’t great. I hope it can change but yes we know what’s wrong. The real question is how do we change it.

I am totally unshocked.

I had a bad experience giving birth to DD 8 years ago. They wouldn't let me come to the hospital, despite me phoning them 5 times to tell them I was in extreme pain and had been vomiting all day. They even told me "you can still talk on the phone, it's not that bad". Of course when I came in it was all of a sudden an emergency because I was dehydrated, baby had passed meconium and we had to be transferred by ambulance to a different hospital whilst already 7cm dilated. There was no time for any pain relief except gas and air. DD was in distress at that point.

I strongly feel this could have all been avoided if someone had given me a drip at some point and had just listened to me, and monitored me sooner. As insult to injury the entire birthing centre was empty!

Postnatal ward was horrible too, DH was kicked out half an hour after birth. I was left in a room with snoring women and one woman whose baby was in NICU with withdrawal symptoms (the staff were not exactly subtle about this so I could hear everything).

I am finally pregnant again after 8 years. Why did I dare do this now? I have moved abroad and have a lot more faith in the Dutch system. I simply could not bear the thought of giving birth again in a NHS hospital. I feel that DD has been robbed of a sibling closer to her age.

I had DD1 at QMC (fuck it I'll name it) during the period now being investigated by the Ockonden review (I'll have spelt that wrong).

I think the whole hellish experience is summed up by the quote from one of the staff on the postnatal ward "We don't really care about the mothers, we're only bothered about the babies on here."

The way I was treated still lingers now, 14 years on - I literally felt like an inconvenient piece of meat in the way of the baby; I had procedures done without consent, and I have permanent pain as a result of how my body was mishandled, plus mentally I was VERY fucked up by it.