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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The most shocking thing about the maternity enquiries is how unshocked I am.

139 replies

GreyandWhiteBathMat · 24/03/2025 06:52

Reading this this morning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyn8n3nyrlo

Which prompted me to read East Kents enquiry, I'm maybe a third of the way through. While I am angry and frustrated reading it nothing has shocked me. It's completely in line with my own experiences in my local (not under enquiry) maternity ward 25 years ago. The arrogance, dismissal and casual cruelty of the midwifery staff there is well known. I didn't have issues with obstetricians who were, on the whole, great if not particularly visible.

Why is this? Why are these features so common? I lean towards it being a long standing issue with midwifery education. It just seems so pervasive in a way I haven't seen across other services.

A pregnant woman holding her stomach

NHS maternity care: What are the problems at the heart of its failures?

An inquest into the death of Ida Lock has shone light on repeat mistakes - and wider failures in certain hospitals across England

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyn8n3nyrlo

OP posts:
FudgeSundae · 24/03/2025 11:18

This is bringing back memories of my first birth. After being induced and labouring with a back to back baby for 7 hours, I asked for an epidural. The midwife tutted, then started pulling at my clothes, saying I had to wear a gown if I wanted an epidural. She literally was trying to strip me naked in a room full of people without my consent, I asked her to wait but she said the anaesthetist was on the way and there wasn’t time. She then had an argument with the anesthetist in front of me. I was sobbing and my husband was shaking with rage but trying not to upset me.
I don’t think I really realised how bad this all was until today.

neonheart · 24/03/2025 11:19

One Born Every Minute videos pop up on my social media feed all the time and they almost always show midwives being unkind or demanding of women in the middle of the worst pain they’ll ever feel.

Yes, I used to love watching OBEM years and years ago but it always pops up on my Facebook and many of the clips make me feel deeply uncomfortable. Women being patronised and talked down to, some very questionable ‘consent’ situations, often an unnecessary lack of dignity as well. A lot of the videos are very old (the babies likely teens now) but I doubt much has changed or progressed.

JandamiHash · 24/03/2025 11:21

GreyandWhiteBathMat · 24/03/2025 07:15

Thanks for responding. I have a lot of professional experience on wards but my observation is cultures differ greatly between wards. The issues on maternity wards seem to be replicated up and down the country.

On your second point about self advocacy, I think that's a huge factor. I'm excellent at self advocacy most of the time. The only time health professionals could have gotten away with it was in maternity when I was too emotional and stressed to challenge or complain after. And the majority of women have men, who on a whole are going to defer to women on this.

I was very lucky to have a DH who was a fantastic birth partner who advocated for me when I couldn’t do it myself. I do think it’s one for fathers to actively do the same and tell midwives when their OH needs painkillers rather than sitting on their phones moaning they’re bored

FumingTRex · 24/03/2025 11:39

So much on this thread resonates with me, i was traumatised after my sons birth and used to dread the run up to his birthday as it bought it all back, it does get better with time.

what sums it up for me is that i had post partum haemorrhage and lost a lot of blood, but not quite enough for a transfusion. I was made to walk to get food/drinks and refused a wheelchair or any help to get from the ward to the car when i left.

A week later I went back for an iron infusion in a different department , they insisted on wheelchairing me everywhere because of the risk of me collapsing. The attitude was so different. The midwives didnt give a shit about my pain or about the risks.

JandamiHash · 24/03/2025 11:48

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 09:27

As a midwife with 20 years experience it’s awful to read these posts and the stuff in the media, totally heartbreaking. I find it really difficult to comprehend how other midwives can treat women like this.

Ive only ever worked in one unit and have genuinely never seen treatment like this. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen where I work but if it does it must be behind closed doors and there certainly isn’t a culture of moaning about the women, etc.

when I was a student actually there was a midwife who used to tell women in labour to “stop making so much noise, etc”. I did report her to a Band 7 once as she upset a woman that I was caring for to the extent the woman begged me not to let the midwife back in the room again ….i advocated for the woman and didn’t let that midwife back in the room which as a student was hard to do. But I’ve always been firm in my belief that being an advocate for women is the main part of my role. Regardless of what they need/want.

I think the culture of a unit makes a difference and I would be surprised if any midwives at my hospital treated women poorly. Overall it’s a happy, supportive unit and that culture starts from the top. When we’ve had midwives come from elsewhere they remark how supportive and friendly it is compared to other places. Staff stay as well which makes a difference. We don’t have a high turnover of staff, we don’t use agency staff. We get on well with the obstetric staff and it’s very much team work. it should be like this everywhere.

I love this, and I wish all maternity wards were like it!

Quercus3 · 24/03/2025 12:34

suah · 24/03/2025 11:06

Is there anything expectant women can look out for when making choices about where to give birth to hopefully have a less traumatic experience? I’m guessing avoiding midwife led units but anything else?

My best experience was on a MLU, post natal wards on hospitals have been dreadful. Particularly the night shift. Perhaps because MLU births are likely to be more straightforward?

Upinthetreetops · 24/03/2025 14:35

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 11:08

Someone said earlier that they felt it was the fact midwives are now direct entry and that compassion and care are not being taught unlike those who were nurses first. My experience is that those older midwives who were nurses first are the worst for bullying and being uncaring (not all, I have had great care from someone who was dual registered).

I'd agree with this, that ime it's the older staff who were/are worse...though I expect I'm teetering on the cusp of being considered an older member of staff now and I'm not bad! 😀

Compassion and care is most definitely taught in direct entry midwifery courses. Recruitment is meant to be a valued based recruitment but obviously people aren't necessarily truthful in an interview so it's possible to get onto the course even if you're a total uncaring bitch I guess. And if that's the case then no matter how much training you give someone you can't change their basic personality. Hopefully if they're too bad they wouldn't pass training but again I imagine it's something they can keep a lid on until they aren't been assessed. Either that or it's a case of being burnt out causes some people to change

Totally agree with both who've said this. In my experience, it's dual qualified Midwives who are worse. Nursing and Midwifery are entirely different. The old school way of nurse training was so harsh and does not gel with what Midwives are supposed to be at their core. There's also a 'we're better than them' attitude from those who are dual qualified towards those who aren't, so there's conflict from the offset. Direct entry Midwives are much more caring in my workplace.

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but where I live it's getting harder and harder to attain a university place in Midwifery. Your school completion exam grades are what get you in, no interview. The level of grades needed is SO high, meaning that the most academic students get in, instead of the most suited. The most academic students don't seem to be the ones most suited to a caring profession. This is obviously a very broad assumption but just something I've noticed.

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 14:38

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but where I live it's getting harder and harder to attain a university place in Midwifery. Your school completion exam grades are what get you in, no interview

Are you sure? It's an NMC requirement for a validated programme that there has to be a "values based interview". I haven't heard of any uni which doesn't interview. But yes, it's very competitive - about 10 applications per place.

Upinthetreetops · 24/03/2025 14:42

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 14:38

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but where I live it's getting harder and harder to attain a university place in Midwifery. Your school completion exam grades are what get you in, no interview

Are you sure? It's an NMC requirement for a validated programme that there has to be a "values based interview". I haven't heard of any uni which doesn't interview. But yes, it's very competitive - about 10 applications per place.

Yeah I'm not from the UK and have always felt it's disgraceful that there's no interview system

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 15:08

Upinthetreetops · 24/03/2025 14:42

Yeah I'm not from the UK and have always felt it's disgraceful that there's no interview system

Ah, yeah that is bad then. Character, kindness, etc is far more important than grades.

Abitofalark · 24/03/2025 15:18

These accounts are horrific. Rampant misogyny by the sound of it.

I happened to hear Donna Ockendon on Desert Island Discs on Sunday. She did a review and report on Shrewsbury and Telford hospital maternity scandal. I haven't read it but may be of interest to mention here.

The programme is repeated on Friday morning for anyone who might want to listen. It was mostly about her own life story, which wasn't a bowl of cherries.

IncompleteSenten · 24/03/2025 15:47

Midwives are taught compassion?
If you have to be taught compassion you're in the wrong fucking job!

iggleoggle · 24/03/2025 15:59

No, not surprised. Labour had its moments, but post birth “care” after my first was abysmal. A little example, though things got much worse: In my notes it was written something like “Iggleoggle requested a bed by a window”. Actually, allI asked for was some sheets on my bed as I was straight on a plastic mattress with no blanket. This was six hours after birth, I had been completely ignored for five of those hours.

my subsequent births were in a stand-alone birth centre, now closed due to lack of staff. It was amazing and also put to rest many of the things that went wrong during and after my first birth.

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 16:09

IncompleteSenten · 24/03/2025 15:47

Midwives are taught compassion?
If you have to be taught compassion you're in the wrong fucking job!

Ok, so compassion might be the wrong term/basic to cover what’s taught.

Firstly applicants are meant to demonstrate values such as kindness and compassion in the answers they give in interviews.

But yes during training there will be sessions on delivering compassionate care in difficult situations, so how are these values applied? No new student midwives knows how to handle caring for someone who’s just had a bereavement, or nearly died and is traumatised. So yes, training is given. There might be scenarios/activities for students to work through about how to advocate effectively for women, ie how to handle it when a consultant is trying to get a woman to do something they don’t want to do. Activities to get them thinking about different viewpoints, a woman who declines blood transfusions, a woman who doesn’t want an emergency lscs, a very “high risk” woman who wants a home birth. This sort of training is all very valid.

Whoknowswherethewindsblow · 24/03/2025 16:20

Honestly, it’s these sorts of stories that make me glad I had elective c sections. I know every birth is different but it seemed the least risky approach to me. I also find it telling that most of the doctors and medical professionals I know have planned c sections when their time comes. Some of these stories are scandalous.

IncompleteSenten · 24/03/2025 16:22

ElbowsUpRising · 24/03/2025 16:09

Ok, so compassion might be the wrong term/basic to cover what’s taught.

Firstly applicants are meant to demonstrate values such as kindness and compassion in the answers they give in interviews.

But yes during training there will be sessions on delivering compassionate care in difficult situations, so how are these values applied? No new student midwives knows how to handle caring for someone who’s just had a bereavement, or nearly died and is traumatised. So yes, training is given. There might be scenarios/activities for students to work through about how to advocate effectively for women, ie how to handle it when a consultant is trying to get a woman to do something they don’t want to do. Activities to get them thinking about different viewpoints, a woman who declines blood transfusions, a woman who doesn’t want an emergency lscs, a very “high risk” woman who wants a home birth. This sort of training is all very valid.

Ok. Well that makes a lot more sense Blush

WhatWasPromised · 24/03/2025 16:27

Another one not surprised.

I had excellent care with my second (planned c sec because of how my first went) but my first was horrific. I too couldn’t believe how callous the midwives were.

The following morning I had a maternity assistant (I think that’s what they are called) come to see me who was so kind and caring and helped get me and the baby cleaned up. That was pretty much the only kindness I was shown the whole time.

Sunshineandrainbow · 24/03/2025 16:42

glittereyelash · 24/03/2025 07:50

My midwife was absolutely horrible. It was such a shame because everyone else in the hospital was lovely. She was laughing at me because i was in so much pain i was crying she said "oh great another one who thinks shes the first person to give birth". When I was giving birth she said "push the baby out or il cut you" at least ten times my husband told her to fuck off and hed deliver the baby himself. After the baby was born she told me she would be informing the social work department as she thought I wouldn't be able to manage a baby as I was such a drama queen in labour. Id never have another child as it was such a horrendous eperience. I wrote a complaint but never got a response.

Absolutely horrific as many stories on this thread are.
So awful to hear that the best time of peoples lives has scarred them so deeply.

I was desperate to be a midwife but always too scared of the achedmic side of the course. Feeling quite relieved now as I would definitely have struggled in this kind of environment.

WearyAuldWumman · 24/03/2025 16:43

It's been like this for years.

I'm in my 60s. When my mum was expecting me, she went to ante-natal classes and the importance of panting/breathing was stressed.

Her gynaecologist was on annual leave. A fortnight before I was due, the stand-in told her that I was breech and tried to turn me. Said "It won't turn!" and sent her home.

Her waters broke that night. Ambulance was called and Mum was taken into the hospital.

In the labour room, she began her breathing exercises. "We'll have none of that in here!" declared the midwife. [Mum told me that wasn't sure whether the midwife didn't approve of new-fangled breathing exercises, or whether she assumed that she was panicking.]

On the third day of labour her own gynae returned from leave. "It'll soon be over, my dear."

It was too late for a caesarian. She was put under and given an episiotomy. Mum was a petite 'elderly prim' at the age of 35. I was 9lbs.

As Mum later said, my dad nearly lost the both of us.

After the birth, a nurse made a mess of inserting a catheter. "Oops! Wrong hole!" Mum said that the pain was excruciating.

She did try for more children after that, but had three miscarriages.

Daisyrainbows · 24/03/2025 16:48

I’ve had good experiences with both my births. However I appreciate this is very fortunate

JenniferBooth · 24/03/2025 16:50

IncompleteSenten · 24/03/2025 08:02

Doesn't surprise ne at all. When my first son was born nearly 26 years ago, the person delivering him majorly fucked up and he was left disabled as a result.

The hospital lied and lied and lied, covered everything up, 'lost' notes, did everything possible to avoid taking responsibility.

We sued and won but it took YEARS and they lied up to the end.

Edited

Panorama are doing a programme tonight. Fixing the NHS What will it take?
Im expecting a load of patient blaming shite

WearyAuldWumman · 24/03/2025 16:56

Whoknowswherethewindsblow · 24/03/2025 16:20

Honestly, it’s these sorts of stories that make me glad I had elective c sections. I know every birth is different but it seemed the least risky approach to me. I also find it telling that most of the doctors and medical professionals I know have planned c sections when their time comes. Some of these stories are scandalous.

My cousin's DIL and DS are both doctors. The DIL is in obstetrics and was very nervous of giving birth because of things she had seen.

They now have a lovely baby, but both nearly died in spite of the fact that the DS was advocating for his wife all the way through. The hospital tried to turn them away and then tried to insist that they drive more than a hundred miles to another hospital.

The DIL nearly died of sepsis.

JandamiHash · 24/03/2025 17:05

TrixieFatell · 24/03/2025 10:39

I did an assignment around freebirthers and the majority of freebirthers do so because they have no faith in NHS midwifery. Utterly heartbreaking.

I became a midwife because of the care I received with my first two. Whilst on paper my births were straight forward, the postnatal care I received after my first was a huge part of why I developed post natal anxiety and depression. They completely undermined my parenting and made me feel scared and that I couldn't care for my baby. I had to beg to get clean sheets, and they took my baby away from me when I asked for a formula too up as I should not do it otherwise I'd upset her too much. I didn't go to hospital with my second, the thought of being there again alone filled me with dread. I'm a confident assertive person and they broke me.

I'm lucky in the dept where I work, I am surrounded by passionate caring midwives who all go that extra mile to provide good care with the women and families in their care. We stay over to make sure things are sorted, we work in partnership with our ladies and make sure they understand what is being said and the implications of it. However I know through my work as a pma that there are areas where the care isn't as good and that we are causing harm to those in our care.

Someone said earlier that they felt it was the fact midwives are now direct entry and that compassion and care are not being taught unlike those who were nurses first. My experience is that those older midwives who were nurses first are the worst for bullying and being uncaring (not all, I have had great care from someone who was dual registered). Bullying is a real issue in midwifery, there's a saying that we eat our young. We burn out our NQMs and they leave in droves.

Yes there is a lack of staffing and there are a lot of other issues in the system but I don't think these excuse the attitudes I've read here. But it's hard to get people dismissed and whistle blowing still is seen as a negative.

When I have broth the young student midwife was an absolute treasurer and the other 2 older midwives were the ones being awful and withholding pain relief u til my DH had to really get firm with them. I hope the student midwife is still as lovely today.

JandamiHash · 24/03/2025 17:09

neonheart · 24/03/2025 11:19

One Born Every Minute videos pop up on my social media feed all the time and they almost always show midwives being unkind or demanding of women in the middle of the worst pain they’ll ever feel.

Yes, I used to love watching OBEM years and years ago but it always pops up on my Facebook and many of the clips make me feel deeply uncomfortable. Women being patronised and talked down to, some very questionable ‘consent’ situations, often an unnecessary lack of dignity as well. A lot of the videos are very old (the babies likely teens now) but I doubt much has changed or progressed.

There was one where a doctor shoved his fingers inside and woman in labour even though she begged him not to and then told her off for refusing, saying “No, no, come on now”. She blamed herself afterwards.

Another showed a woman suddenly getting v quickly to 10cm and asking for an epidural. The midwife laughed at her, told her to get a grip and then took her gas and air off her saying “You don’t need this it’s a distraction”.

Evil people.

JenniferBooth · 24/03/2025 17:25

Im childfree by choice so havent had the experiences shown here but i stopped taking HRT because it made me bleed and they kept wanting to send me for a hysteroscopy (just in case) without a GA. So im not taking HRT anymore Not putting myself through it. Stopped HRT just over six months ago. No more bleeding

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