To be gleeful that most of us were right

[Wranglestar]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/adding-vat-to-private-school-fees-has-had-no-obvious-impact-on-state-sector-applications-390546/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2ATdaVlNkJsbtC-KizuW4Fw41obnpvezxnFv4IAFwzJPHXmU90Awr5eqAaem9tMIsn9I0vHSC4jrdYONIA#0rd9makyd4264nstc4us9j77yk5kaoswtLondon Economic

And that private schools has had no impact on state school places. The rich have simply - paid more. Excellent news!

In the end it depends what you describe as "affluent". As I said, I'm a teacher on a decent wage, well above the UK average, but I'm perfectly ordinary, have a mortgaged house, was the first in my family to go to uni, my car is 12 years old. My child simply could not attend the state secondary..absolutely frozen in place through EBSA. It wasn't a choice. I'd bloody love to have the fee money in my bank every month, but my DD needs to access education more.

Yet again, no-one is talking about the disparity that allows people with large salaries to buy houses in catchments near to better schools. In my town there are four. Two are awful, but houses nearby very affordable (mine being one). One is RC, one is amazing in terms of results and outcomes. The catchment area requires 200k more minimum than the first two schools. There is a much bigger difference between those schools than between my DDs and the best state school. On paper, I don't earn enough to buy a house in the catchment of that great school, so she was offered the choice of the two awful ones and everything went tits up in Y7.
How do we address that inequality, which impacts far more people? Oh no, we don't, because it would be politically popular.

@RhaenysRocks I completely agree on the unfairness of opportunity-hoarding via housing markets. The better-off can access excellent state schools and also build up housing wealth at the same time, winning both ways. And I agree that the unfairness of unearned housing wealth should be taken on!

I hope you get some rest over half-term, and that your daughter's happier now and doing well at school.

No children in my DGDs and DGSs classes at private school left due to VAT on fees. Yes, it’s more expensive but for those that can afford it,
not the end of the world!

Save your glee for when the government reaches its target of employing 6,500 new teachers and improves low performing and failing state schools. Because surely that’s what it’s about, isn’t it?

Oh ffs how can people still believe this when Labour have now expressly said, after the fact, that the money will go towards house building targets.

And if none have left, great, but I bet some have left or not joined at natural breakpoints like Year 7, Year 9 and sixth form (also, would you know as grandparents? Are you that close to all the famillies in your grandchildrens school?). The schools have to keep getting new students in to keep operating.

I said “classes”. Which I do know. Some DGPs are involved in the DGCs schooling, you know.

And I do know that the money is going to housing. A little barbed irony!

If someone decided to whack 20% onto your mortgage suddenly, would you be fine because if you could afford the original amount you MUST be able to afford the extra? I keep hearing this and it's really bloody odd.

How would they know for a whole school anyway.

VAT on our fees is an extra £800 a month.

£800. That's a fuckload extra that no, we can't necessarily stretch to. With everything else we need to stretch to. VAT on fees is not in a vacuum. It's on top of the COL crisis. It's on top of the fact that I have had to reduce my work due to chronic ill health and a life limiting illness. It's on top of that we were both in the private sector in jobs that have not seen a pay rise - never,mind even a below inflation pay rise - in years. People who have been in the public sector, sorry- you have no idea what it's like for the average un-unionised numpty. When we put our DS1 into private school we had to get a mortgage on a house we were lucky enough to own outright. We are looking to re-mortgage in the new year.

I have been on many threads under this name and among other things you can find me on threads where i have talked about how we are not putting the heating on this year because we can't afford it. I am on the frugal christmas thread because I'm not sure we can stretch to buying gifts this year.

But, we are the rich. We have the broadest shoulders. We are despised by this government. People who have no fucking idea about what the independent education sector REALLY looks like assume that we are all just rich arseholes who can suck it up, bend over and take repeated and endless kickings. And screw us. Screw our children.

"Screw your children"? Really??

What about the majority of children who attend state schools, mostly because they have no other choice?

Are they all damned to some awful existence right from the word go then?

But actually I'd just like to add here - both my kids attended average to low performing state schools, both ended up at top universities.
It is actually possible to survive & thrive in the state system so your kids would probably be fine there too.

Well, as long as you and yours are fine, that’s okay then.

Unfortunately for you (and us), with this government it is only a matter of time before you and yours are also affected by one of their incompetent and/or malicious policies. The smug, ‘I’m all right, Jack’, comments might well infuriate you too.

I am watching with interest how people’s view of the Labour government changes when they feel the impact. I can’t see them lasting beyond one term.

What on earth do you mean - " as long as you and yours are alright"?

My kids had no choice but to go to the local state school.
They worked hard & did well & I did everything I could to support them.

My point is that this dramatic hand wringing about private school fees as if children having to go to a state school instead of a private one is akin to being thrown to the lions is just rubbish!

My point is simply - what do you think the rest of the population do?
Is it still 93%, it was at one stage.

Some of them end up like me, attempting suicide because my school was so manifestly unsuitable. And what you can’t seem to understand, is that it’s the pupils that were previously moved from state schools that were not meeting their needs, whose parents were already stretched that this is impacting most. For what?! A tiny bit of money (when compared with the entire education budget) that is not even being put into state schools. I agree that state schools need improving. That’s why I support 1p on the pound income tax increase for everyone, with all the money going to state schools. Do you? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?

Of course I do, why wouldn't I?

State schools need more money put into them asap!

And there will be people who struggled and were desperately unhappy at private schools too
I know some myself.

Well this VAT policy isn’t doing that and it is also impacting children, some of whom are vulnerable. Then there are the people who have lost their jobs when schools have closed, or where schools have had to cut staff to continue operating. Why would you support this? Ask then ask yourself why the current Government introduced this policy.

I never said that it was an exclusive issue with state schools. But this policy is forcing children back into schools that destroyed their mental health. For what? Answer my question.

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that YOUR children were fine in THEIR state schools. I also felt I was well served by my state school education. Unfortunately, there are many, many state schools (often the only option for parents due to catchment) which are not fine or do not suit their children. Their children do not thrive. If they can afford it, why not encourage parents to spend money on a private alternative, rather than building a new conservatory or taking a luxury holiday every year? And, yes, I do understand that it would always be out of the reach for some families but I am still not certain why the government made it harder for all families to achieve by adding 20%. Surely, allowing more options for as many people as possible is the best way forward?

i don’t feel that it is ‘dramatic hand wringing’ for children if they have been wrenched from their chosen school, away from the teachers they know and their friends. it is not unexpected that many ‘wealthy’ parents can’t afford another 20% when they may have been stretching themselves to the limit. It isn’t a small amount of money.

I feel you lack empathy as you do not see that you and your children were very lucky. I appreciate the state education I received and I don’t feel at all inferior, which is what I think makes some people so against independent schools - the Eton effect, I guess.

My point is also simple - why would any government restrict educational choices, thereby making life more difficult for many children, families and people working within the independent education sector and the communities they serve? My point is that it was pointless and it is backfiring.

And I hope they had a choice of alternative schools, both state and private, to attend instead. Again, this shows the value of having a range of educational institutions from which to choose, rather than hoping ‘one size will fit all’.

Again it comes down to people who have no idea how fortunate they are that their children’s needs are met in the state sector.

This is what is often said on private school threads.
Then a completely unrelated thread will pop up about how awful state schools are with everyone agreeing about the dire state of buildings, cutting down the curriculum to bare bones, staff overwhelmed and leaving in droves, bad behaviour in schools.

State schools are both fine for the majority and terrible at the same time.
Private schools are bought advantages and entrench inequality whilst being a waste of money at the same time.

ETA: I was state school educated and have done well.

Many kids will do brilliantly in many state schools. That's fantastic. A lot of that might come down to parental ability to live in a particular catchment, or to have won the lottery of life and have no ND or SEN or similar. And be confident and outgoing and at least averagely bright. If even one, let alone many of those factors are present, you can be the most supportive parent in the world and it won't help. As pp have said, deliberately making it harder for some children to access a good education in a safe and suitable environment WITHOUT improving state, which is what has happened, is indefensible.

The wealth inequality argument is weak. There will always be people with more money and they can choose to spend it how they wish. Education and healthcare are just two of those choices. Some people use public transport, others can afford a Dacia and some a Rolls Royce.

Many state schools are appalling and not fit for purpose. I say this as a recently retired educator who worked in many schools on supply. I sent my kids to the local catholic school which was outstanding and the first 3 got 8s and 9s. The fourth ended up at another school and got 5s and 6s. She would have got higher at a better school and if I could have afforded private, I would have paid for it.

I had a look at what the OECD said about UK education & thought it interesting that they view the UK (really the English) system as 'heavily private'. This is because they define any school with an independent board of governors as private, even if all its funding is from public sources:

'An institution is classified as private if its overall control and management rest with a non governmental organisation (e.g. a church, trade union, business enterprise or foreign or international agency) and if most of the members of its governing board are not selected by a public agency'.

There is a lot of diversity of provision within the state sector due to academisation, free schools and the emergence of multi-school trusts.

How do public and private schools differ in OECD countries? | OECD

The tone of some comments here is just out-of-kilter with what the general public thinks.

My guess is that people in general don't feel strongly and categorise it with other special interests. People in general support the right to educate your child how you wish, and might also be very happy to access private education if they (we) had a large windfall. They use private tuition an awful lot: nursery schools, driving lessons, football academies, extracurriculars more generally. They aren't against doing whatever you think best to support your own children.

But they didn't support a continued tax exemption, and survey evidence is really clear on that - both YouGov and Deltapoll, to name two sources. The Civitas report for which the Deltapoll survey was commissioned is striking because Civitas is centre-right: Civitas: Institute for the Study of Civil Society Independent schools: What does the public think?

There is a lot of need around today which has been neglected for a very long time. Things are genuinely tougher for people on lower incomes and those with multiple disadvantages (health, income, housing...).

If it seems like good luck to live somewhere with cheap housing, think about what the opportunities might be like there.

It's just hard to see any positive case for raising the basic income tax rate - affecting lower-paid workers disproportionately, who have already been caught by fiscal drag - before removing this exemption.

That isn't to say that relatively better-off people have no needs, or don't deserve fellow-feeling. But they usually have more choices and control over their lives. And on average, they will get through the next few tough years in better shape than the much less fortunate.

@evertriedeverfailed But we are the only country to view private education as a tax evasion and think it is acceptable to add 20% to fees. Are all of the other countries wrong? Is our economy in such a bad way that taxing education is a valid solution? So far, the answer seems to be no as it is going tits up and any money raised will be (perhaps, maybe, possibly) spent on ‘low cost housing’. Until Labour need the teeny-tiny amount for another scheme.

Exactly this.

Same ones that are making the… labours not working threads… and moaning non stop about everything.