To be gleeful that most of us were right

[Wranglestar]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/adding-vat-to-private-school-fees-has-had-no-obvious-impact-on-state-sector-applications-390546/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2ATdaVlNkJsbtC-KizuW4Fw41obnpvezxnFv4IAFwzJPHXmU90Awr5eqAaem9tMIsn9I0vHSC4jrdYONIA#0rd9makyd4264nstc4us9j77yk5kaoswtLondon Economic

And that private schools has had no impact on state school places. The rich have simply - paid more. Excellent news!

We are rural, and our very standard comprehensive is pretty diverse: plenty of Romanian, Polish and Lithuanian families, Ukrainian refugees, and more recently Hong Kong Chinese.

We are rural and our state school is 98% white British. The whole area reflects that % yet the independent is around 76% white British. So more diversity in the independent school.

Of course not. I'm saying that if parents send their kids private they are less invested in state education being decent. Of course there are a host of other issues around why some kids end up needing a private education because the state isn't providing.

Except most parents mix and match state with independent eg state until 8 then into independent and then back into state for 6th form. Very few do independent all the way through. So we ARE invested in state. There is a huge misunderstanding around this.

I just can't comprehend how anyone who is supposedly dedicated to inequality would look to dismantle private schools as a priority. Do they really think this will help any of the disadvantaged students stuck in underperforming schools? There are so many bigger fish to fry and yet the priority is this!?!? It is astonishing!

At a starting point, they should look at state sponsored inequality. Grammar Schools, privileged catchments around Outstanding schools are all huge contributors the inequality. Eleven plus exams should be completely reformed or abolished to remove the advantage that expensive tutoring currently provides. Catchments should be redrawn where possible to make sure that there is more diversity in demographics. It may be less convenient for some, but it will balance out the profile for schools. No state school should have less than 5% of students on free school meals when the surrounding area has a much higher average.

Most importantly, we really need to tackle disengaged parents. I have a child in an average state school and some of the children are actively discouraged from learning. The parents don't support homework, spellings or any extra curricular activities that would enrichment the lives of the children. We need to somehow reach these children and force the parents to do more. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see how a child that is up for learning in Reception, disengages by Juniors. This shouldn't be allowed and crap parents should be forced to support their children's learning needs.

None of the above would be helped by private schools going out of business. In fact all it would do would stretch the education budget further and cause a lot of borderline SEN kids to enter the state system and take up lots of valuable resource.

This is rubbish! I have a child in an independent school and one in a state school at the moment. So do lots of other parents I know. Everyone at both schools recognises the importance of having a decent state education available to all children.

Also, I am interested why you think people need a child in a state school to be invested in state education? Does that mean people without children don't care? What about those who have adult children?

In the real world, most people see the importance of a decent state education for the children themselves but also for society. We all know we will need skilled, educated people in the future so we have a vested interest in state education whether you currently have a child using it or not.

Of course I care, as a non parent, that the population is well educated. But I can't pretend I hold schools and government to account to the same extent that actual parents do. In part because I don't have current direct experience, if nothing else.

“But the thing is, the richest of the kids in private schools, like mine, are just now accessing an even more exclusive education and you know what, in your own words… I am utterly gleeful! Our kids and those with our kids will all just stick together.”

@Zigazigarrr - you did make that not very nice comment, did you not?

An exclusive education is fine, as long as your DC understand how privileged they are to get it, and they can still get on a public bus without being scared and join a local scouting group and mix normally with kids in their community. And the sticking together comment is not very nice. Whether you like it or not, everyone has to mix with the public and is a part of “society”. We have an NHS and we have a democracy and the suffering of others does impact everyone.
The kids of rich people mostly would have done well in most good state schools too, if they have a stable home environment and educationally motivated parents. It is important to understand and acknowledge that.

I personally completely disagree with VAT on education, I think it is ludicrous. However, I think it is still important to value the privilege of a private education.
And if people are upset, I do understand but saying I am going to vote Reform just because of this VAT or saying we rich will just stick together now - well it is just as bad as what Labour did.
Hopefully VAT on education will be proven to be loss making and temporary in any event. They have had to backtrack on all sorts of other things too.

i do not feel the way you do op

I always supported the move made by Labour and strongly suspected the many winging of being strapped for cash would find the extra cash somehow. I have always been appalled at the many claiming to be struggling when they have children at private school

but i genuinely do feel for those (few) that have two jobs and work all hours in lower paid jobs to pay for their children for what ever reason I know a few in this position

You don't feel sympathy for the teachers and staff who have been redundant, SEND children being displaced and having their education disrupted though? State schools which have lost access to facilities due to independent schools closing? The SEND DC in state schools who now have to share even more stretched resources?
No, because they are all just "whinging" aren't they?

At least you own the fact that you support the taxing of the education of children though. How do you feel that ideologically that puts us behind Nigeria?

Of course the irony is that you support a policy which has served to make independent schools MORE elitist 😆

I think you're a little naive. You are right to some extent that most parents have more of a vested interest in the schools their children attend. This however can manifest in self orientated and quite selfish actions, rather than parents pushing for the common good of everyone in state education. The squeaky wheel tends to get the oil and those that are most invested and most capable getting what they want and those that are disengaged or less skilled paying the price.

In this context, are you sure you want a lot of private school kids competing with everyone else for state resource and to influence school/government decisions on state education? Their needs and wants are going to be vastly different than a deprived child stuck in a sink school, yet they will be able to fight the government and Schools much more effectively to get their needs met.

Let's face it, someone that can afford private school is unlikely to live in a catchment for a sink school. You are not strengthening these schools by weakening private schools. Instead you are simply making the current elite state schools even more elite.

@Araminta1003 Don't be so idiotic - my DC have gone through a lot of their childhood living in central London and as children just believed buses just took you to new and exciting places. Point still stands: my children's job is to have a good life for them. That's their role. They will be on this earth for scant amount of time, as we all are. So that to me, as their mother is my priority, not anything else. The suffering of others, don't dismiss it. Do a job that helps with that if it's your calling but don't castrate yourself as damn sure no one else will for them. I only need to look at the threads on this board to see it's every man for itself or something for nothing.

Indeed, you say my comments were not very nice, Agreed. However, when you pay the amount of tax we do (and my DF does even as a pensioner - and I am talking many thousands a month) the amount of inheritance tax that will be due when various members of my family including us will die, that the govt witter about the lack of money they have when they come into power before spunk huge amounts on union pay deals and then start restricting choice regarding paying extra to school our children on the basis of jealousy then yeah, it begins to grind.

And yes, we have an NHS. One of my children has to have a time critical operation that's terribly complicated but she wouldn't have even been seen on the NHS months on. So it's being done privately. And when I say it's serious considering the nature of it even though it would cost it would cost I would fund it myself if I hadn't had the private healthcare in place. So, sorry, I am also not one of those who won't be critical of "our NHS" either. Total load of bollocks talked by politicians who wanted to set a narrative that we have to all protect it because that protects their own frankly disgraceful records.

“Elite” state schools are only elite to the extent that we are talking about a more privileged parent demographic or the achievement of top grades by an able cohort. As regards funding per child, they are all struggling and many are having to beg parents for cash for the PTA to refurb the odd sports pitch or falling down portacabin they do have! Go look at how much funding they get per child in some of the top grammars. It is a fraction of what most private schools have.

So an elite cohort of highly able children is not the same as a well funded private school.

Although the PTAs in wealthy state schools are able to bring in 100s of £1000s, even millions, through fundraising. That makes a huge difference to school budgets and just extends the wealth and inequality gap in the state system.

Read my post again

But having had a child at private school and mixing with many private school parents I am very aware of the cries of poverty from so many who have no idea of what it means to be strapped for cash

Private school is elitist, always has been why pretend its not

Depends on the school.
There are many who charge circa 6K per year ie less than state funding per pupil. Not all independent schools are full of wealthy parents.
Ironically this policy is rapidly getting rid of all the small, cheap independent schools thereby making the whole sector MORE elitist.

So yes in a couple of years time there will be no cheap independent schools, the only ones which will have survived will be the large wealthy ones and then the whole sector will be truly elitist and the inequality gap will have widened further.
The sensible way to address the gap would have been to re-introduce Assisted Places scheme and support expansion of the cheaper schools to ensure more children from lower income families attend.
Shame Labour scrapped the Assissted Places scheme and are closing those cheap schools!

@Zigazigarrr - good luck with your DC’s operation. That sounds very stressful for all of you.

@Araminta1003 thank you. That’s appreciated. She’ll smash it. She has strength.

Going to some state schools is elitist. Look at the percentage of children children recieving free school meals at some naice Outstanding state schools and you will see that this is simply state sponsored elitism.

I have a child in state school and a child in private school. Some of my friends who use the state school are wealthier than those who use the private school. Often the differentiating factor is how well their child happens to fit into the state school system, not the income they earn. I have friends earning a combined £200k a year enjoying an excellent free state education for their children whilst I have a friend who has to borrow money from her parents to keep her child (suspect SEN) in private school as he simply couldn't cope with larger, louder classes.

I'm sure you will now cry, 'what about SEN kids stuck in the state system?'. Do you seriously think it will help these kids to have my friend's son in their class with them, competing for resource, time and attention? They benefit from having one less resource intensive child in their class but people don't care about that because it isn't completely 'fair'. The reality is the whole state system is unfair and we all pay our taxes to support it. At least private school parents have the decency to pay for their privilege.

i don't think you read the post I was responding to 💁🏼‍♀️

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that. But please explain/ show me where this policy has given a direct and demonstrable benefit to a state school.

There really is no such thing as an “elite” state schools because even the highest attaining secondary school ones typically only get funding of just over £6000 per child.
Compare that with the money most private schools have to play with.

Oh there really are. It's not just about money per head but catchment and attainment stats...if you need a million pound mortgage to be in the catchment of a school you're going to be the kind of educated, motivated parent that produces high achieving kids. You can have a large class if all the kids in it are eager to learn and well behaved. There's far more disparity within the state sector than there is between an average (not Eton) private school and a high end comp.

But if you can produce A stars with 6500 per pupil per year, then what are the elite private schools doing with the extra 20000 plus they have to spend? Sometimes even 30000 plus? Is that still adding value?

I also do not think every parent is looking for the same kind of school for their DC. People have very different values and expectations and the whole idea that everyone is looking for a leafy yummy mummy expensive catchment comp is some people’s idea of hell. Just like some of my friends would never send their kids to the grammar I chose for my DS. Compulsory triple science at GCSE and Latin for 2 years is just not at all what they want. I think it is false to assume that all kids want a highly academic school with high expectations and plenty of homework.