To be gleeful that most of us were right

[Wranglestar]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/adding-vat-to-private-school-fees-has-had-no-obvious-impact-on-state-sector-applications-390546/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2ATdaVlNkJsbtC-KizuW4Fw41obnpvezxnFv4IAFwzJPHXmU90Awr5eqAaem9tMIsn9I0vHSC4jrdYONIA#0rd9makyd4264nstc4us9j77yk5kaoswtLondon Economic

And that private schools has had no impact on state school places. The rich have simply - paid more. Excellent news!

As regards my friends who have kids with SEND, most of them are simply looking for kind schools with good pastoral care and some flexibility towards their DC as regards academics, compulsory GCSE, attendance, discipline etc. Some of the kids are highly academic in some ways, but not in others and just do not fit the stereotypical mould so need a school that would allow them to tailor any GCSEs they do end up taking, dropping things last minute if it becomes overwhelming etc .
The problem in the state system seems to be that because there is so little funding per pupil they are having to just choose one model and implement it for as many kids as possible to get the best outcome with so little funding. There is far less room for flexibility.

On these VAT threads I have found the state school parents proclaiming that their DC got 10,000 A* at A Level and have gone to study at Oxbridge and therefore private school parents are all wasting their money and ridiculous so confusing.

We started private school because my eldest was desperately, seriously unhappy and we didn't know what else to do. Over the years it has been around wrap around care, sport schedules and opportunities, performing arts opportunities and wrap around care due to both of us working full time. I assume they won't bomb out of their studies and might nick a grade or two more than they would have done at a state school but it has never been the point for us. I get bemused by the assumption it was or should have been.

I think you are a sad person. There are kids behind these decisions. I think you’ll find many parents will do what they can until their child finishes education, but the tax will put off parents with kids starting education so there will be a lag on the fall out.

We moved our daughter to the local private because she had numerous mental and physical health problems. This local private was not better than our local comprehensive - in fact I would argue in terms of its buildings / grounds it was substandard to our local comprehensive and the teaching was not as good. But the smaller class sizes meant our daughter could cope with lessons. She’s now had an education and is at uni - so will hopefully get a career which works with her disabilities and therefore she is less likely to be hitting up the government for life long disabled allowances. Who I feel sorry for are the kids with Sen needs coming through - the government is not going to be able to provide the smaller class sizes some of these kids need. There will be more Sen kids in government schools meaning either resources get dedicated to these kids and the NT kids miss out - or the Sen kids don’t get the support they need.

I would disagree with this too - we have twins and my son was in an ‘elite’ state school which I regard to have better buildings / grounds / teaching then my daughters local private she went to for the small class sizes due to her Sen needs. Schools get their building grants over and above their £6,000 a year per kid and they also get parent donations. My son’s ‘elite’ state school has much better facilities than many schools including private,

I think you need to do some more research into private schools as the numbers you quote are ridiculous. The average private school charges £18k and the average state school child will be funded to the tune of £8k. The difference is therefore actually around £10k and nowhere near £20k. We know 20% of the fees charged with go directly to the government as VAT for a start (£3.6k) and then private schools have to cover business rates now that state school don't have to. So say that leaves £6k per pupil to fund additional teachers, facilities and all the costs associated with running a private school such as marketing etc. It really isn't the case that private schools have tens of thousands of pounds per pupil available to add value. Those schools that do will have exceptional facilities and amenities but they are very much the minority of private schools and as relevant to discussions about private schools as those that charge £4k a year (yes there are private schools that charge that little!).

I do think though your question exposes an obvious question for many people though, if you can access a free (i.e. state funded) excellent school then why pay to go private? You may have an opinion on this matter but ultimately it everyone withdraws their kids from private school then this would be an absolute disaster for the economy, the education budget and for children that now won't get a place at an excellent school because some private school kid can afford to live in catchment. It's a race to the bottom really where the poor and disadvantaged lose out to appease the middle class that don't like to see people richer than them get ahead.

@Marshmallow4545 - I am quoting our local private secondaries, compared to our local state secondaries. Appreciate it will be different in different localities.
As regards state schools, some of the newly built ones have excellent facilities but some of those with far poorer facilities have much higher attainment so it is a mixed bunch really. One of the most popular comprehensives has an asbestos management plan.
As regards even the most elite private schools, what some people find desirable others really do not (things like boarding, Single Sex, socially exclusive).

I think it will take a bit of time to show the impact, but I work at an independent school and also do private tutoring. I can tell you, albeit anecdotally, that lots of families who were previously quite set on private secondary school, are now looking for places at grammars and good comprehensives. The competition for grammar places in areas like mine is going to get much fiercer. I have families who have 2-3 kids at secondary who are realising it is now not viable long-term and are looking to make the move. It may not have happened yet but it will. The other key point you have missed is where the money raised by the VAT is going. It has not been ringfenced to help state schools as many presumed it would. Even if it did, the impact would be tiny. Finally, just a reminder that the families hit the hardest by this are the middle class families of SEND children who are struggling to find the money to send their children to private schools with smaller classes and better resources, as their children are drowning in the state system.

Absolutely. A party that taxes education, pensioners and the disabled is an utter disgrace, labour as you said seem to base their policies on envy and spite.

To be gleeful that children have lost their schools or school places (as per the thread title) is deplorable and smacks of jealousy and bitterness.

I'd be gleeful if the extra money had in any way improved state schools. But it doesn't seem to have... A policy based on envy from an incompetent government.

@CeciliaMars I think you are completely right. Certainly where we live, the parents at my children’s prep school are now viewing it as a springboard into the more competitive Grammar schools.
I could have mentally tolerated the VAT imposition if it was definitely going into state schools. But it won’t.

I would also flag up a growing sense of resentment/pulling up of bridges from some of the other parents I know. As in, not so bothered about doing outreach/facility sharing with the local community. If we are viewed with such disdain, why should we share more?

Exactly. It's obvious that us and our children and loathed by Labour and their supporters, fine but the feeling is mutual now and many schools are drastically reducing the help they gave the state sector which I agree with.
Loathe us and attack us but also want our goodwill and money? Fuck off.

That’s Labour for you. It’s all they’ve got.

@twistyizzy Yup!

Us too. We don’t pay for grades, we pay for our child to be educated somewhere positive, calm and happy. Sadly that’s not available to us locally in the state sector.

We didn’t have the luxury of state education for our child. Labour still - apparently - believes that every child’s needs can be met in the state sector. This simply isn’t true. I wish it was the case - and it needs to be.

There certainly has been a change of attitude 'at the school gate' at our school.

Drawing up the bridge is right. Ours is a small indy and the only option available to us in my particular catchment is an oversubscribed school that has only just emerged from special measures. It's going to help no-one if there is an influx of some 200-odd students into that school. (There are 3 high schools in our immediate area and 500-ish students in our indy school so I am doing a crude calculation of the division between them all. The school in our catchment is the only one that has a 6th form.)

There were months of threads moaning about this unjust treatment CremeEgg.

Telling us commoners how our normal schools were about to be hugely overwhelmed with hoards of Hugos and Cressidas, as a result of this woefully unfair decision to get business to pay tax, like all the others do.

People who had previously been able to pay £20k a year to make sure their little cherubs were kept insulated from the riff raff, were absolutely certain they would never be able to find and extra £50 a week to maintain their privilege.

And those jealous, tax hoarding lefties would be hoisted on their own petards.

Guess what? It’s all fine 😆🙌

Or maybe some people just think we should create a fairer society for ALL children? 🤔

But how does depriving some kids of an education that works for them help to make things better or even fairer for ALL children? Each private school pupil thate enters the state school system costs £8k and places additional strain on overstretched resources. The private kids will inevitably flood into the better schools, pushing other children into less desirable and worse performing state options.

It is a case of putting the cart before the horse. Sort out the state system so it's fairer and better for the children within it then look at private schools and closing the fairness gap there.

Dont bother with logic and economics. It will be ignored. A sentence involving the hilarious £1.8bln will be shot back at you.

Not for the 16K DC who have had their education disrupted, or the 100s teachers + staff who have lost their jobs. For the SEND DC in state schools who are now having to share even more scarce resources.

What you mean is that YOU haven't been impacted so it's fine. Your little cherubs haven't been impacted so it's fine. Screw the DC who have been impacted.

@twistyizzy exactly.

I envy everyone whose children’s needs have been met in the state sector. And I find the spite bewildering.

It might be fine now. This shit show is only just getting started and will take a while to truly settle down. Very few parents will pull their kids out of a school they are happy in unless they literally can't afford the fees. It's the children at the transition points that are the best indicator of things to come. I have children in the state and private sector and it is absolutely influencing parents' decisions about senior schools and many more private school parents are attempting to send their kids to fantastic state schools now than previous years. A good chunk of them will get in and this will mean some other children will miss out. I have seen the impact of this first hand at my child's state school where it has become harder to get a place at the local excellent senior schools. We are not talking about numbers here but actual real life children missing out on their first choice school and being separated from their friends as the losers in the system are destined to attend a school in special measures.

I attended a poor state school myself and I think this policy would not have helped me either. I didn't care if Hugo went to the local private school and got every advantage that brings. I cared that I was stuck in a crap school with rubbish facilities, behaviour problems and disengaged staff. I simply wanted the same opportunity as those who were lucky enough to get into the good state school across town. The fact I couldn't even get an adequate education was the problem, not that Hugo had a slightly better education than Rupert who was at the local Outstanding High School.

I agree that the shit show is just getting started. A close friend of mine has DC in one of the most highly performing very popular London independent schools and a lot left for Sixth Form this year. We can see it in our grammar schools too. So the kids will just move into the better state schools, was obvious all along.
Couple in the dire economic conditions Labour have created, it is inevitable. However, to talk about drawing up the bridge when some of you may well need to put your own kids in state schools in the future and use the private school facilities (if still available) is a bit much.

I am one of those people expecting to change position for year 7 and 12 vs the plan. It seems at this point that the entirety of dc1's year 11 will b moving on and their private school sixth form will be empty!