To agree with Wes Streeting's statement that MH issues are overdiagnosed?

[Locutus2000]

Pretty controversial stuff.

Who decides?

The world of work has changed enormously even in my lifetime. Just as an example: Many people worked without being able to read or write in the not so distant past. I expect (legal) jobs that don’t require any literacy aren’t as easy to come by now, and certainly not for life.

Yes, you can claim multiple benefits but overall you are not better off than someone on just the one. They cancel eachother out.

I agree

We are being asked if it is reasonable for Streeting to overhaul the benefits system as the claims for PIP for mental illness is unacceptable to the government acting on behalf of the tax payers.

I am not sure about vouchers at all. I think if the system is being overhauled, that is something they might want to consider.

I am sure that the rules giving the DWP access to bank accounts, and perhaps some evidence that the benefits are actually being spent on manual help or equipment will be activated before too long. There has to be some tightening up on the costs, but I am also worried about how many young adults of working age are claiming PIP for mental illness, because that will affect the whole country in a decade or two time.

If the figures are correct, then the UK will have such a low workforce that there will be major problems for our children and grandchildren in the future. The benefits situation may grind to a halt sooner than we think.

But you cannot say they are one and the same if they are not.

Some supermarkets (looking at you, Asda), filters out applicants with some multiple choice psychometric tests... that realistically will filter out the vast majority of ND people.

There are no "shelf stacking" jobs anymore... they are all expected to stack shelves and be till trained, and basically know how to do everything.

You might be able to ‘identify’ those patients but you are no way close enough to being qualified to diagnose them.

I’m ND and I’m expert in identifying others who are also ND, but I’m not arrogant enough to assume I know better than a medically trained doctor of psychiatry despite my insider knowledge. Edit: sorry I think I’ve quoted the wrong person - still trying to work out the new app!

I'm not doubting you at all. I'm simply pointing out anyone determined to claim PIP with no illness will make up a MH illness as no objective proof available. Incidentally apart from a consultant letter, who just writes down what a patient self reports, and a counsellor letter, who will report how patient seemed and what they said, and a statement from a spouse or partner, and maybe a prescription what other evidence would many people have of MH? I know you have a sectioning report but the majority of people with MH don't get sectioned.

I'm not trying to argue to upset you, and I do believe you, I'm just pointing out Ithink of all illnesses MH is the easiest to fake because of self report.

And I am saying I don't think it is.
I go to support groups full of people on benefits for MH reasons, and we are all scared about what is to come.

At the moment, the review is for people of working age who are currently on PIP for mental illness. The idea of the review is to get people working and off benefits. (A different review is possibly being planned for the physically disabled of working age who are currently out of work. That is more difficult, because cancer patients are rushed through their applications for PIP, and no one can deny them.)

Would it be better if the form was accompanied by a letter from a carer to show that the disabled person - and Mr Streeting was referring to those of working age with a mental disability - did need care and was receiving it?

Of course that would mean having to show that the carer was receiving the money, and that is taxable income. It is possible that the whole benefits system was designed to employ carers and keep taxis on the road (in the case of the mobility component).

Most carers are self employed. Perhaps when the benefits system is overhauled the claimant will have to show the necessity for the benefit, and that the DWP will require proof that another person is needed when the claim is associated with mental illness, rather than a physical disability?

The benefits amounts are very similar for psychiatric and physical disabilities, yet the physically disabled really have to have help. Perhaps the DWP will have to assess these differently in the future?

There is no talk of reviewing the PIP for physical disability as far as I know, and most of the protests are connected with that.

The point is: do you think a review is needed?

Many mentally ill absolutely have to have help, ditto many with NDs.

That’s ridiculous. I’ve lost count of the amount of stories I’ve seen in the media of claimants for physical difficulties being spotted not as disabled as they’ve claimed.

So how about we give them the treatment they need. Proper treatment with highly qualified professionals instead of support workers.

No it wouldn’t. We pay £120 a session. Sometimes my son needs 2 a week because it’s invasive.Psychiatrists are £500. It’s a crippling amount of money and all because the system let him down massively.

I know a few people who don't work due to mental health issues.

A young man age 25 who doesn't leave home and lives with his mother who supported him without any benefits for 4 years. Profound anxiety, waiting to be seen, waiting for diagnosis. Referred by doctor. He genuinely doesn't leave home and has massive social anxiety issues. He is suicidal.

A lady who has never worked, daughter is 9 and goes to school also claims for social anxiety. Goes shopping, out and about, socially active, could work but choses not to.

Lady and partner, children in care system, both don't work and have a bit of a social life, variable ability. Not worked for many years due to trauma of losing children due to neglect.

Mental health spending might help these people. That's the issue.

Blimey, I didn't realise Britain had so many untapped MH experts. The government needs to get them off this thread and into the NHS, then we can do away with all these useless qualified doctors who keep overdiagnosing healthy people.

That isn’t how it works. We had to send in prescriptions, all diagnosis reports, details and proof of the many hospital admissions, minutes of many meetings, letters of support from NHS professionals, medical evidence….

Nothing from her therapists or me.Anybody can be a therapist. and I’m her mum so pointless.

Is this not in itself an illness or condition? If someone isn’t functioning they need treatment. Maybe the anxiety that comes from being raised as a snowflake (apologies for the term but I want to be clear I’m talking about the people I think are being called out here) is still anxiety and needs treatment. Maybe just CBT and life skills and a kick in the arse to get people accepting life is hard and you have to stand up. But it’s still anxiety.

Money for treatment is desperately needed. A stick to beat isn't the answer.

A lot of mild mental health issues are due to lifestyle and societal issues.
Thinking there’s nothing we can personally do and only experts can help us is a big problem in itself.

I think the evidence must be graded and taken into account too as in the covering letter explaining why she was getting PIP it stated that the information we provided was the best available and she made her decision based on the form and the information provided by our community mental health team.

Patients holding get to just use a sicknote from a councellor who has done a course.

I work in MH services, it is difficult to get through the door, you have to be a risk to yourself or others really. What I find interesting is that what people expect from MH services isn’t what they get. People expect to sit on a sofa, chat about their inner most feelings and trauma for years, and be spoonfed support. That’s not what we offer. We try to put it back on them, what are you going to do about this? What solutions can you find to solve this?
What we don’t want is someone attending appointments for years and not being accountable. Yes we will ask you to turn up, yes you can chat about things that have gone wrong this week but for the first ten minutes only and then we change the subject.
People have been lied to by American sitcoms that therapy is all about them opening up, it’s not, therapy is work and self reflection.
So as much as people fight to get in, a lot of people aren’t in the place to do this work and discharge themselves.
So overdiagnosis? I’m not sure. Misdiagnosis I can imagine. I think there are a lot more people with emotional intensity rather than ASD/ ADHD (not clients but people I know socially). But no one is paying privately to get a ‘personality disorder’ diagnosis, because of the stigma, despite the fact that it is still a condition which you had no control over, and usually the result of trauma which also wasn’t your fault.
In terms of PIP it is near impossible to get PIP for anything that isn’t significant mental health. I know people in psychiatric hospitals for stays of over six months who have been declined. The proposed changes will make it impossible almost.
Rather than carry on as we are, we need more trauma informed, psychologically minded work coaches. We have one in our trust, one!! Because work is generally beneficial for our mental health, but building up tolerance is difficult. I used to be a mouthy angry young woman and I would quit jobs if someone told me I took too long on my lunch break. I needed someone to validate my rage but let me think through my options. Think about the cycle of quitting and then regret and self loathing, think about self harm and how this was a bit like that too. I needed someone to show me why I thought and acted the way I did in the context of the work place and how to rewrite my brain and change that behaviour/ cycle through understanding why I did it. A diagnosis such as ‘adhd’ does not mean someone has done that critical thought analysis/ reflection work. So in some ways it does do them a disservice.

So in the quote substitute 'therapist' for 'GP'.

You cannot deny that so much of it is self reported. That's not to say it is lies/exaggeration for all claimants , the point is it's POSSIBLE, for some.

This!!