To agree with Wes Streeting's statement that MH issues are overdiagnosed?

[Locutus2000]

Pretty controversial stuff.

Who decides?

I think it might be over diagnosed because that's how people feel these days. In the past if people felt down they just got on with it now they seek medical help. That's a good thing not bad but mental health is actually diagnosed from self report questionnaires. A person could tick any boxes stating their MH was worse than it is. Then they get diagnosed with a MH condition. The consultant has no way of knowing if a person is being truthful or exaggerating their MH condition. It's not like they can gather data from a blood test or X-ray. I'm not suggesting everybody is making up their MH condition but it's likely that there will be some who do.

Suuuuuure they do.

Of course self reporting symptoms is valid, as like you said, there are not x-rays or blood tests to diagnose MH conditions. And psychiatry is not an exact science anyway. It is not unusual for someone with MH issues to get a lot of diagnoses changed over the years.
Personally, I underplay my symptoms, as there is an aspect of denial as to how ill I am at times. Underplaying symptoms can be a symptom in itself. I have been sectioned before, so it is like I am scared of saying how bad I am. And someone ill can think they are fine... when in fact they are very ill. You can totally lose insight, and let me tell you, when you look back at those times, it is fucking terrifying.

Yep, total crap. Counsellors are just human ears that listen and reflect back to you. That don't diagnose anything.

I know 4 separate people all on LCWRA for mental health issues (all are anxiety) who are very capable of work and do bits of part time work in things they’re interested in / have worked full time before but realised wages are low and the stress isn’t worth it so they have played up and exaggerated their
mental health issues in the assessment. They do have issues but these do not affect their ability to work. One got his mother to write that he’s incapable of leaving the house without her and he can’t travel outside her local area due to anxiety, it’s not true. Another got her mental health worker to write a letter that she’s incapable of work, obviously the worker could not say no because he is there to support her..

It’s frighteningly easy to get onto the LCWRA and at that point you’re set - no need to look for work and no job coach on your back, easier to apply for PIP, higher rate UC and other freebies.

What I’d like to know is.. where is this taking place exactly? In the north east it is extremely difficult to see a secondary care mental health service to actually see anyone who could give a diagnosis. The threshold for assessment never mind treatment is extremely high. GP’s aren’t adequately trained to give formal psychiatric diagnosis.

You have illustrated the problem here.

Person with low need and presents with/reports no apparent symptoms, sees experienced MH practitioner who assesses them and doesn't refer on.

But apparently this assessment, despite being thorough and including taking the person's history, is wrong because masking. This logic would mean ALL presenting patients who think they have ASD need referring on for an assessment which costs thousands, diverting psychologists and psychiatrists away from people who do need therapeutic input.

I think it's the entitlement that gets to me tbh.

I am not sure reading the posts whether we are talking about recipients of PIP who are not physically disabled and who are also getting unemployment benefit.

Disabled people most certainly could get both benefits if they cannot get employment, because the PIP goes to paying someone to help them, and disabled people cannot pay helpers from their unemployment benefit. It is very difficult for a disabled person in work to earn enough to cover the cost of assistance getting to and from work.

If the claimant for a psychological condition cannot go out unaccompanied, then that would be acceptable for PIP if they are being employed, but I cannot see that they would need daily assistance if they were on unemployment benefit.

Although Streeting did not refer specifically to children, I will stick my neck out again and incur more wrath and indignation, by asking if children are awarded DLA for neurodivergent conditions, and what help do their parents buy with it?

Do the parents have to give up that benefit if the child is provided specialist helpers at the school, or is attending a special school?

Adults receiving PIP have to notify the DWP when they go into hospital or an NHS situation.

If parents of pupils receive DLA for ND conditions, do they need it? Is it right to get the child used to depending on benefits into adulthood? Is it a label they can do without as children, because they grow up with a feeling of entitlement.

If the claimant for a psychological condition cannot go out unaccompanied, then that would be acceptable for PIP if they are being employed, but I cannot see that they would need daily assistance if they were on unemployment benefit

They would still need assistance to go out shopping, got to appointments, go to support groups, go out for a coffee etc. Or are they just meant to stay at home because they don't have a job?

As I said most will be honest and truthful but because there is no objective test there will be some who just make up symptoms and tick the questionnaire boxes. Scammers are obviously going to target illnesses with self report symptoms because they can't claim to have something that would show up on a blood test or X-ray because they'd be exposed. They probably would be given drugs but they wouldn't take them.

The trouble is, by saying stuff like you have, some people will think all people claiming for MH are like that.

I cannot answer everything you've mentioned here, as I do not receive any benefits for my DC. But life with a ND child isn't easy when they are in school. My DC cannot attend breakfast or after school club. There isnt anyone to look after him outside of school other than Mum and Dad. I need to be on hand quickly if school contact me. He requires constant supervision and lives on very little sleep. My life and ability to earn money is very different now to when he was in nursery and I had childcare for a full working day.

Let me give another example, paedophiles will target careers where there are DC, so teaching, nursery assistants or priests. That's not saying all of the people who work in those roles are paedophiles. If you were a person who wanted to target DC it would be easier if in a role working with access to DC. In the same way anyone wanting to make up a claim for PIP would obviously choose an illness where self report was the only diagnosis used and there were no objective tests. Then they'd have a few counselling sessions and get a report from counsellor agreeing they had MH problems. They might get meds but not take them. Can you see it would not be a difficult thing to do, if a person was so inclined? Do you genuinely believe no one ever does this?

PIP is hard to get, and even more so for MH issues.
You can't just see a counsellor, fill in a form, then get PIP. It really does not work like that.
If you think it does, please try it and come back to MN and say how it went.

All children require constant supervision throughout their school life, whether they are disabled or not. Physically disabled children do more often than not need help, so parents have to pay someone to help them.

Parents have either to be there for the child before and after school. Are you saying that you have to employ someone to help you over and above what you would need if your child did not have an ND. It isn't easy to bring up any child.

I thought breakfast clubs were to encourage children to have breakfast, because so many were not being given breakfast before they left home, and do all children stay after school for clubs if their parents aren't working?

So? Does that mean the system doesn't need overhauling? It might well be that those who really need it may lose it because of the number of people claiming it who don't need it.

The DWP says if you are on PIP or DLA you don't have to use it to pay someone, you just have to need it. Perhaps they should stop that and insist that those on the benefits show evidence of buying a service or equipment for their disability? It might cost a bit more to process in the beginning, but a few years down the line, it might prove a saving on the system.

If a person with MH needs to employ someone to help them get to work, then that is right.

If they are also unemployed, why would they get PIP as well as unemployment benefit, and probably Universal Credit unless they are buying help with it?

I am saying that the only affordable childcare I have (school) is from 9am to 3pm, term time only. By constant supervision I mean my DC cannot be out of eyesight. I cannot for example do a task that takes my attention away such as cooking or cleaning until a second adult has taken over to supervise. And I do it on very little sleep. I am saying that I would have to employ someone rather than using breakfast, afterschool and holiday clubs. But even with a high earning husband (and myself now on a modest wage) that is totally unaffordable. This is the reality for lots of parents.

Addressing your last point... PIP is to help people with disabilities have independence.
Do you think only employed people should get PIP?

And what do you mean by unemployment benefit and UC? The UC basic rate is the unemployment benefit. It sounds like you don't actually know anything about benefits, or the rates. Maybe read up on them before you criticise them.

If a person was to tell their counsellor they couldn't leave the house because they got so anxious they had to stay in because they didn't feel safe going out and give some examples of when they wanted to go out but just couldn't, possibly getting upset and emotional whilst getting the counselling I suspect the counsellor would write up a report stating this. Similarly if they told the counsellor they felt so depressed and down they regularly thought of taking their own life the counsellor would write they were mentally unstable with severe mood disorder in a report. That report then becomes evidence. A person could say they felt so low they couldn't cook themselves a meal or wash themselves and they only ate or washed because their partner made them eat and wash. They might give an example of when their partner had to go away for a couple of days and they didn't shower until they got back. Their partner then writes a statement stating their partner is often suicidal and they worry about leaving them alone when going through depressive episode. Stating their partner needs prompting to get them to shower, cook anything or even eat and dress themselves and then that's 2 corroborating pieces of evidence. I'm not stating most people do this. Not at all. I'm simply stating it would be POSSIBLE to do if a person was determined to get PIP or not go to work. I've no idea how many people would want to do but there will be SOME.

Counsellors are not medical professionals, so I don't think they would be classed as the only evidence maybe if they were amongst of a lot of other input from other professionals though.

Ok, this is gross, but I have have had 4 showers this year. How can I prove that other than telling someone? I do not have a MH nurse come to my house daily to check.

Possibly but even weekly counselling would only claim about half of the PIP

PIP is indeed to help people with disabilities to have independence. It isn't a case of giving the PIP only to people who are employed, and I cannot believe you really think that.

My point was that the physically disabled usually do need to buy help or equipment with the PIP, and if the recipient has MD, and has to buy help with the PIP, then they should receive it.

If someone has MD and is unemployed, and on other benefits, and does not use the PIP to buy help or equipment, should they also get PIP?

It is a question. At the moment everyone gets it whether they spend it on help or equipment or not. If someone suffering from MD does not need any more help than a non-disabled person, why should they receive PIP? Their condition may be corrected with drugs, as with those suffering diabetes, or thyroid diseases.

Not all diseases are debilitating. Some are corrected with medication. Mr. Streeting is referring specifically to very great increase in mental disease claimants, and is rightfully challenging the system.

I didn't vote for him. I wish him luck. It isn't easy to have to take benefit away from those who rely on it, but neither do I, as a tax payer, want to give my hard earned away to someone who shouldn't have it.

Yes because the medical profession has only just ‘discovered’ that women can have ADHD. So yes, some catching up has occurred.

It sound like you would be ok with PIP being vouchers instead of just cash payments.

You can claim both jobseeker's allowance JSA and Universal Credit UC at the same time, but your UC payment will be reduced by the amount of your JSA

That may amount to the same thing, but is more correct because not all JSA claimants also get UC.