To agree with Wes Streeting's statement that MH issues are overdiagnosed?

[Locutus2000]

Pretty controversial stuff.

Who decides?

No you don’t, you need evidence. My daughter had a folder full.

Masking is a strategy that many ND people use to protect themselves from abuse but the strain of masking leads to overwhelm, burnout and worsening mental health problems. This is not on the same scale as neurotypical people having to adapt their behaviour to fit in with say the workplace. The roots of the problem lie in an ableist society who are reluctant to accommodate people of difference in workplace and social settings. If people were more understanding of neurodivergence then perhaps we wouldn't see the need for ND people having to hide their authentic self and risk additional MH problems.

My son was diagnosed with GAD. The cause of his anxiety, well, some time back in 2020 when he was 9 he was being told by teachers that he was a risk, that he was a germ vector, that my sweet, kind, sensitive boy could kill someone if he got too close to them. Granted, this probably isn't what they meant but to a 9 year old it's what was heard.

So OF COURSE he had fucking anxiety, he was led to believe he was a danger to society just by virtue of being a child who attended school (we're key workers).

This anxiety caused him no end of issues, he grew panicked, paranoid, withdrawn. My sweet, adorable son became a shadow of his former self. He shut himself away from those he loved as he was so sure he would accidentally kill his parents.

We worked sooooooooo hard with him, doctors said he'd go on the CAHMs waiting list but the wait was around 4 years. We were bereft.

You know what ultimately helped him, he went to secondary school. An apparent "under achieving school" looked at my son, listened to his parents and saw him as the individual he was. They took him under their wing and worked tirelessly with him and with us. Yr7 started with much difficulty, he's now coming to the end of yr9 and is back to the child I knee before covid. CAHMs finally called 2 weeks ago, I told them they were no longer needed.

His "under achieving" school helped us, worked with what we already knew. Taught him resilience, played to his strengths, helped him understand his weaknesses. God bless those teachers and support staff!

My son would have been another statitistic, he would have been medicated and probably struggled with life. But he didn't, the right people found him and helped him.

This is what society needs, not just automatically assumed that MH illnesses are who you are but the belief that you can turn it around. We don't have enough of this.

Yes many do have a folder full of examples on why they need prompts to eat, dress, wash etc.

Those who are ND or have MH problems do need support etc, they don't all need PIP. Have how seen how the amount of claimants has soared? Now that is not becaue we have an ND/MH crisis.

It is incredibly stressful for those significantly affected by physical disabilities and those with serious mh problems that the whole PIP thing is being rehashed again to try and reduce the amount claiming unnecessarily.

I. Would love to see a breakdown of the payments people receive. Mysteriously this not forthcoming as far as I can see.
Are the incomes of the parents of the child taken into consideration.
Are the mobility of other family members considered when motability is considered.
is every claimant seen as an individual that the state and council must provide facilities for equal to others with similar issues.
Does eligibility for housing benefit get included in calculations.
The only thing I’ve seen is £800 a month which h is v low if it is your only income but not so bad if on top of a full time job.
As usual with the Gov we are all arguing about who knows what and getting totally insufficient information ? deliberately.

Exactly this. If he means Dr's would rather hand out antidepressants to women than check bloods for anemia or thyroid issues then yes. Female healthcare seems to have been built around the fact we don't have real pain or illnesses, it is all in the mind - see hysteria.

There's a lot I could write in response to this thread, given my life history. I understand both sides to some degree.

However - given that neurodiversity has been mentioned a lot, as well as people being signed off work, I'd like to make one point.

People with autism are highly likely to want to work, but also highly likely to be unemployed/underemployed. I haven't got the stats to hand but it's shocking, how many want to work but just can't find employers willing to take them on, or ways into a job they are actually suited to (ie. won't make them break down and be sent away).

It's particularly difficult because jobs seem to require more and more in terms of stressful working conditions, ever changing shifts, being available 24/7 ... it's harder for everyone, but for some people this pushes them over the edge into the territory where they can't cope anymore. This also means that they can't keep a crap job for long enough to prove themselves and move up into a more manageable job.

Autistic people, by and large, want to work and get on with it. The nature of autism means they (we!) tend to be loyal, wanting to do things properly (ie. not cutting corners or coasting), having an attention to detail, sticking to their word, and other excellent qualities.

The government should be finding ways to get all the autistic people who want to work/work more into suitable employment.

Yet they're not doing that even within their own departments - although they have some schemes for autistic people to do work experience/work trials in the Civil Service (work trials are the best IMO for many autistic people who can't get the job through work history and need a chance to prove themselves), one of the schemes appears to be closed indefinitely, another is only for under 25's, and the third is only accessible to those who've done the under-25 scheme.

I'm autistic, I'm resilient, hardworking, degree educated, and desperate for a job. It's really tough out there.

@Slimbear you’re mixing everything.

the £800 is the max you get with UC.
On the top of that, for ALL UC claimants, not just disabled people, you get housing benefit.
If you’re disabled and can’t work, you then Have the premium added. So that’s the one thing that’s currently different from any other UC claimants.
Do they take into account mobility of other people in the household? Nope.
Because if you’re looking ability to work, it wouldn’t have any impact right?
Obviously UC is linked to the household earnings too. Disability or not.

Re PIP, it’s not an out of work benefit. The money will be used, for eg to get an adapted car for someone who uses a wheelchair. They might still work. They might struggle to cook/wash etc… and use that money to buy help so they can work instead etc….
Do they take into account mobility of other people in the household? Nope.
Because PIP is about what the person can do or can’t. Not about the support they have around them - That’s what carer’s allowance is for.
It’s also not income related. One if the reason was the acknowledgement that having a disability has a cost. From needing support from a cleaner, putting the heating up, pre prepared foods, treatments etc etc… And supporting people to be healthier (because Thars what it about. We’re not talking confort here) means preserving their ability to work, or to look after themselves. Which costs less (in social care, NHS etc….)

I agree with you that, unless you’re right in the middle of it, it’s very hard to,follow. In particular because you often hear about ‘disability benefit’ wo clarifying WHAT Theyre talking about so it all gets mixed up.

I would say mild-moderate mental illness is over diagnosed and under treated. Severe mental illness is under diagnosed and treated as if mild-moderate.
I've had mental illness since about 8 and have been under secondary mental health treatment since 2006 and have seen a lot. It took 8 years to get my bipolar diagnosis, the average is 10 years. I had seen 4 psychiatrist in that time, I could have got the diagnosis after 4 years and in psychiatrist number 3 but I didn't because I was working full-time and doing a masters at the same time. Even though my mania was getting me in trouble at work and meant I was falling behind with uni work. I thought I could fly and people were out to get me to stop being become supreme ruler of the world but none of that trumped the preconception that severe mental illness meant unable to work by a qualified professional!

Mild-moderate mental illness now covers those going through a difficult time, those with mild-moderate mental illness and those with severe mental illness but still don't reach the criteria for extra support. Those that need practical and emotional support to get through awful situations get left with antidepressants and left to their own devices, slowing the improvement of their symptoms and situation. Those with under diagnosed mental illness get inadequate treatment and support and left to their own devices, slowing down the improvement of their symptoms and situations and making their mental illness more severe. There's those in the middle who might just get the treatment they need to make the difference but given they are also fighting for resources with those that aren't suitable for the support but it's the only thing on offer will they get it in a time frame that either helps before they move into the group with more severe mental illness or find themselves in crap situations that are adding to their mental illness limiting the effectiveness of treatment. If you are struggling with mental health and just clinging on to life a 6 month wait for therapeutic support can mean in that time they lose employment or find that support systems disappear because they do, I've lost so many acquaintance and friends because of my mental health undiagnosed and not treated I was awful to be around. I'm grateful for those that stuck around but have no ill feelings for those that stepped away.

Absolutely the worst state for me is a shit situation whilst experiencing mental illness. No matter what the treatment life will be shit and a massive trigger. Whilst mentally ill I don't have the capacity or resources to change the shit situation. I was fortunate that whenever I was diagnosed with bipolar I had access to the early intervention in psychosis team. They provided 3 years of support!! They supported me through diagnosis and then learning to live with a lifelong mental illness. At my worst I saw a care coordinator, support worker and therapist every week and had medication reviews every 6 weeks. I had 4 months off work. In the blink of an eye I went from working full time on my PhD, living a life to not being able to get out of bed. The switch was literally 1 week, I tried so hard to stay in work, kept turning up struggled to make it through the day. Outwardly I looked like I was functioning but internally I was broken without the routine my mood plummeted further. All the way through my PhD I couldn't stay stable my mood was so volatile and vulnerable to external triggers. Working 50-70h a week, high stress, high pressure, unsupportive supervisors who didn't believe in mental illness working 26 out of 28 days. It was a recipe for disaster the support I had from my mental health team kept me functioning and hanging on to a life but it was only years later that it meant I could use those skills to stay stable. I've only had 1 mild and 1 severe episode in the last 8 years and the severe episode was triggered by having a baby.

There was one time where I was having a really crap time my nan was in resus fighting for life and my partners nan was dying 400 miles away. Torn between loved ones spending the weekend on the motorway. I broke down in work on Monday exhausted. In my previous life I'd be told to go sort myself together and get on with the job by the weekend I'd be in a state that I would be heading towards an episode and potentially a prolonged absence. Learning my lessons I knew I needed time and rest. I was sent home, I spent the afternoon crying and sleeping. Caught early that was enough I went back to work the next day did my job to my normal ability for the rest of the week. There are so many jobs where I would have had to struggle on for the rest of the week, there's so many people that haven't had the support to know how to prioritise the basic when your world is spinning out of your control that wouldn't have seen the warning to rest and take care of yourself.

We need to prioritise emotional intelligence, we need to improve knowledge of mental illness. I spent 15 years feeling very other because I never had a reason for feeling sad and that's always the first question when you tell someone you are sad. I have an answer I'm bipolar it makes me sad and depressed without cause without reason. I have spent hours crying on teachers over the years never being able to get past that first question. I never knew about bipolar or depression and the difference between sadness and depression. I think if I did and had the support had from the early intervention team at 25 at 18 when I first entered mental health treatment I would wear less battle scars. The real issue is there is the time or resources to adequately triage those on step 1 at treatment into those that are going through tricky times and need support for that, those with mild-moderate mental illness, those with a bit of both and then those with more severe mental illness. At the moment all but the most extreme mental illness are grouped together and the larger this group is the less resources are available to sign post each person to the correct support path for them.

If I was 18 now I'd get less support than I had. I qualified for an urgent CAMHs referral for being actively suicidal and self harm. Often the criteria now is multiple suicide attempts. I received support from the eating disorder team but the combination of anorexia and bulimia meant I only just met the weight criteria for anorexia. I'd be told now to go away until I lost more weight or to have physical consequences of my behaviours. I dread to think where I would be now in that scenario

I agree with this! People who want to work should be able to and supported to do so where that is needed. Why start with forcing those slots in employment onto those who dont even want to work and will often go out of their way to get sacked, instead of those who really do want to but just need a bit of additional support?! They shouldnt be discriminated against, rejected or only given mediocre jobs that hide them away.

Discrimination in the workplace is now supposed to be illegal and protected but there are still places that find ways around this, especially where in the early stages of applications, interviews, probationary period, etc a rejection/dismissal can be excused as anything.

There was a ND guy on Dragon's Den last week and he was excellent, even the Dragon's said he was one of the best pitches they had ever had. I cant imagine the effort this guy would of went to behind the scenes with the pressure and things, but he was given the chance and he absolutely excelled.

'there's so many people that haven't had the support to know how to prioritise the basic when your world is spinning out of your control that wouldn't have seen the warning to rest and take care of yourself.'

I'm sorry that your nan and your dp's nan were both ill in hospital but can you not see that others wouldn't describe these sad situations as a world spinning out of control? Good that you are in a job where you can go home and take a day of sick but many people aren't.

Strategies and coping mechanisms are so important to allow us to keep things in perspective. I realise it isn't as simple as that but again treating and supporting those with significant problems while not grouping everyone with very mild issues is a start.

I think Streeting is wrong to say this. Without having access to people's medical notes there is no way anyone, including he, can comment.

He may be right of course, but has no evidence.

They would see them as spinning out of control, that wasn't my comment. My comment was would they know what to do to improve their wellbeing when they notice their world spinning out of control?
5 years earlier I would have broken myself trying to be there for my parents, my partner, or to stay busy so not to "dwell" on the situation - rightly or wrongly that was how I learnt to respond to those situations. I learnt to, stop breathe and prioritise the basics - sleep, food and rest. When you take care of your core needs you have the resources to be there for others. By taking the Monday for me I could be there for my parents and my nan on the Tuesday my partner and in-laws and my family the rest of the week.

If you want what we evolved to do you need to go back to nomadic hunter gatherers. I think a lot of our problems are caused by living unnatural lives compared to how we evolved to live.

On the other hand I'm not keen on the idea of giving up central heating and there's too many of us to go back to living that way, even if we all wanted to.

Who says we haven’t got a mental health crisis? We have and an under resourced MH service.

We have a MH crisis that is getting worse because of underfunding and a lack of treatment.

We have a resilience and lack of perspective crisis and sadly lost among it all are those with significant mental and physical illnesses that can't source the help they need because everyone else claims to have anxiety and adhd.

Not what professionals are saying. You have made that up.

'By taking the Monday for me I could be there for my parents and my nan on the Tuesday my partner and in-laws and my family the rest of the week.'

But you should have been working. You could've taken time mon evening to rest and recharge which would have meant you were there for your parents and your nan Tues and your dp and his family the rest of the week. Though tbh you didn't really need to be their for your dp's family and their nan they have each other. Try not to think you have to be there for everyone all the time I'm sure your dp's family do not expect it .

Thank you. It’s just a shame autocorrect decided that naivety should say nativity. Kind of took the edge off my point.

I've made it up that we have too many people claiming to have mh problems and that is why pip is having to be rehashed because claims have increased by a third in 4yrs?

Do we really though? 20, 30 years ago we had much higher unemployment. People could live on one average wage, or on non disability related benefits. Now those that cannot work have to address the issues why they cannot work in order to claim the money they need to survive. Those people weren't more resilient in the past, they were just supported by their spouse or tax credits.

You’ve made it up that we don’t have a MH crisis- we do.

I'm a mental health nurse, my sister has very very severe autism and I suspect I am on the spectrum but i'm not interested in persuing a diagnosis. I think there's a few things going on at once.

I think MH problems are more prevalent generally, people are under more financial pressure than before, there is political turbulence etc etc.

I also think people are less resilient at tolerating distress and expectations of services are higher than before. There also seems to be an increasing belief that psychiatric medications is very effective and is going to fix things, which for most people with anxiety/depression it unfortunately will not. Wait lists for psychology and CMHTs are a joke, but non-attendance rates are also high.

It's great autism is bring diagnosed more, its validating and helpful. I do get frustrated though with the autism = autism mentality though, and I worry this means resources go to those who are able to advocate for themselves.

A (superficial) example of this is that my sister loves rollercoasters and I take her regularly to big theme parks. She is non verbal and can't understand the concept of queuing so gets a pass to queue jump. A few years ago we could turn up, wave at a nurse, get a pass and not have to queue. Now we need to apply online in advance for a pass and we need to usually queue for 20 minutes in a queue of other people with special needs. She sometimes finds waiting hard and she will stim and vocalise. I never see someone like my sister, its usually kids with parents talking excitedly, showing no obvious distress/agitation/high arousal. I get they could be masking/quiet in that moment, but equally a good chunk of them are going to be capable to queuing for an hour but have opted to get a pass. On forums you can see people discussing how to apply for a pass.. I can't help but think this mentality is going to be there in any (admittedly sparse) available service for people who are neurodivergent and the people who can advocate will take away what's on offer from those who can't/who struggle to.

I wasn't fit for work, I couldn't stop crying and couldn't engage thought so couldn't do my role. I was struggling to stay awake as I was heading for a burn out situation. I was sent home at lunchtime because of this. For what it's worth, it was classed as flexitime rather than sick leave/annual leave and I made up the afternoon later in the month. My company had a policy that you had to do your hours over the course of the month and as long as deadlines were met and meetings were attended they gave a bit of freedom for when you did the hours.

This!!!

Honestly people can call it what they like, a MH crisis, lack of resilience, entitlement, effects of covid, etc. The fact is something needs to change and for me it is the people's job, aswell as the government's to do that.

Kids dont even play outside anymore, of course they are going to get anxious when they do, no one wants to wait 10 minutes for a bus or in a queue anymore, you aren't even aloud an opinion anymore without being vilified because it doesn't match someone else's narrative. No one takes responsibility and accountability, it's always the NHS's fault, the government's, the man next doors fault. Society is changing for the worst, not just because of politicians in power but also because of the people. Everything is always wrong or not enough.

Honestly what sort of life has it turned into?! Is anyone actually happy?! Is there even any appreciation in the world anymore? Because it's very rarely anything other than doom and gloom, woe is me. No wonder everyone is apparently depressed when all anyone wants to do is take and sit back whilst others are told to fix things.