To think there should be minimum standards

[Obviouslynamechangedforthisagain]

For parents to keep their home?
Reading threads on here people admit to children being bathed once per week, wearing pjs for weeks on end, changing beds monthly etc.
Obviously not everyone lives in squalor but if there were minimum standards (ie 3 baths pw, bedding changed weekly) it could help an awful lot of neglected children that don't reach SS level of need.
Admittedly it would be almost impossible to police but if it could be done AIBU to think this could be a good idea?

"Good ideas" with arbitrary values, that can't be policed, are the worst laws.

These sort of "standards" are imposed by the force of public opinion.

As long as there are enforced statutory standards for posting on mumsnet first.

No.1 on the statute - plopping

There’s a reason why the definition of neglect and similar doesn’t stipulate standards to this granular level, e.g. three baths per week. It is to prevent a situation where professionals who intervene have to meet an unprovable evidence burden. A social worker might know instinctively that a child hasn’t been bathed that week but how could they ‘prove’ that and other specific thresholds without being in the house/having some sort of surveillance. What you’re suggesting would actually potentially give more wriggle room to people guilty of neglect because they could focus on arguing specific points - ‘can you definitively prove that I haven’t changed these sheets each week?’. It also allows for professionals to make judgements in shades of grey - and there will always be shades of grey - to ensure that good parents aren’t unnecessarily punished. Someone might neglect to bathe their child enough for a week if their partner was seriously ill in hospital, for example, without it meaning that there was a case for neglect. But if the neighbours or a disgruntled ex partner were to report that the requisite three baths hadn’t been given in that situation, would social services have to intervene? It would rapidly become Orwellian.

What a lot of nonsense.

My children are bathed once a week and washed in between, because one of them gets running, open sores of eczema if we do too much more. I don't change their beds every week in winter because they a small kids who don't smell and wear pyjamas which get changed most days. They are clean, fed, loved and cared for. My home is clean. Do you honestly think thousands of children would be better in care / under the stress of social involvement because they aren't under freshly laundered bedding once a week?

I know families which work hard to present the perfect image with nightly baths, pristine homes, perfect WBD outfits and all the rest, but treat their children like little accessories, or dirty inconveniences, which is far worse.

I concur!

As a child I had a bath once a week, shared water with my 2 siblings. The bath was made of tin and we bathed in front of the fire. We had a healthy and happy childhood, with home made meals every day, lots if walking, playing out, playing in streams. Far better childhood than that which daily bathed children have today. A childhood which led to us being fully functioning adults.

Children's beds do not need changed weekly.

That achieves nothing. It is no indicator of them not being neglected and is dreadful for the environment to be doing so much unnecessary washing.

OK now I'm curious. Has it actually become the norm to change bedding once a week? I've always worked on two weeks being the standard, and a month not normal but not uncommon and probably most people leave it that long occasionally.

On the bathing, I've recently started to put my foot down and push teenage DD to have a bath/shower daily because it's not something she's doing naturally and as a teenager it should be daily more often than not. When the kids were little and we were past the point where bath time was part of the bedtime routine (because they'd be regularly getting grubby every day) it was once or twice a week and when actually dirty. I didn't have a timetable, just when I thought it had been a while!

That’s why I said non-pathogenic microbes.

But how are you going to achieve that without exposure to pathogenic microbes at the same time? You can't select which microbes to wipe off a surface and which ones to leave.

I agree. These are far more important.

Okie dokie, I think a few posters have taken what I said and run a marathon with it!

I didn't once mention taking children into care.
I did say it would be impossible to police.
I did say that not everyone not achieving these standards was living in squalor.
I didn't say anything about abuse in my OP.
I work full time (and have done since my kids were babies) and manage to keep to these standards myself (kids are teenagers now so I have been doing this for a long time!)
I thought it was obvious that nutritious food, reading, playing etc would be included but admittedly I didn't mention it in my OP 🤷‍♀️

I definitely don't think I am the most bat shit person on this thread and thank you to all of you that insulted my common sense/intelligence, clearly you are not as clever as you think you are if that's all you can manage to come up with!

I was the child bathed once pw, with bedding left on for weeks and clothes that were washed infrequently. I was itchy and smelly and horribly bullied as a teenager as despite my hair being stuck to my head with grease I wasn't allowed to wash it more than weekly, cleanliness wasn't considered a priority.
Along with this there was a general lack of feminine hygiene products, still only allowed the weekly bath at that time of the month and I felt rotten as a child/teenager as I stood out from the other kids.

My idea for a set of standards obviously wouldn't become law! It would be impossible but perhaps guidance handed out during pregnancy or after birth would make a difference to some families lives. I wished there was more 'busy bodies' around when I was a child asking my mother why I was so filthy and smelly!!!

Can you not see the difference between a teenager not allowed to wash more than once a week and a 7 year old washing twice a week and only then under duress?

I'm sorry you were neglected as a child.

My own parents probably only forced me to wash a couple of times a week as a child but I was allowed to shower and bathe as often as I liked and often did twice a day as a teenager. Bedding was probably washed monthly or if it was obviously dirty or smelly. I had a wonderful childhood.

You still haven't clarified what you meant by take away their home?

There is one set of standards that can be enforced, and where probably children are in as much danger as anywhere. Driving standards.

As for the others, do more to tackle or avoid poverty, and I expect much of what the OP highlights would reduce or disappear.

I was the child bathed once pw, with bedding left on for weeks and clothes that were washed infrequently. I was itchy and smelly and horribly bullied as a teenager as despite my hair being stuck to my head with grease I wasn't allowed to wash it more than weekly, cleanliness wasn't considered a priority.
Along with this there was a general lack of feminine hygiene products, still only allowed the weekly bath at that time of the month and I felt rotten as a child/teenager as I stood out from the other kids.

Truly sorry you went through that, and this is a genuine question: do you think a leaflet during pregnancy would have solved all that for you?

I change the sheets every couple of months, bathe my kids every five days or so (the baby has a bath once a month), and I can't remember the last time I hoovered the house.

Yet, the house is relatively tidy, kids are well fed and watered, their teeth are in good nick, and they're happy.

Edited to add, I'll wash the kids if they're filthy. They love digging in the garden, y'see.

Also being the child of a (loving but) lax parent that didn't prioritise hygiene, I concur with this. It's not OK to let your child be dirty or sleep in dirty bedding or not have clean clothes and PJs or to live in a mess. It's damaging to the child, and despite my mother being really loving and me being in many ways "privileged" I'm actually really scarred by the lack of decent hygiene standards in my childhood home. I'm fairly sure in my DMs case it was an issue of (undiagnosed) ADHD which meant she just couldn't keep on top of everything, so I don't blame her, but it was not a nice experience growing up like that and it frequently caused me distress.

I'm actually quite horrified at the number of people on this thread saying just one proper wash a week is OK or that sleeping in the same sheets for a month is OK. Both of those are dirty and a child looked after like that will be smelly, and they'll know it, and feel shamed by it. I know because I was that child.

Obviously good hygiene standards are in addition to other good parenting, not instead of it. It's odd how many people seem to think it's an either/or. No-one's advocating that you should wash your child instead of reading with them or playing with them, but in addition to. Nor is anyone saying that having good standards of hygiene mean that no other abuse could be happening.

I don't think that it's something that can (or should) be policed. But why isn't there guidance? It's not OK that some people think children with dirty bodies,clothes, bedding and homes is OK. This thread shows that many people really don't understand what the minimum standards need to be for a good, happy, healthy upbringing. Of course not everyone will be able to meet good standards all of the time for various reasons, but surely we should at least be trying to guide people to do so?

Yikes, the OP would be calling social services on me as none of the bedding in this house is washed weekly. When I was growing up it was every two weeks for bedding in summer and every three weeks in winter. I think that’s about right.

Whilst "a leaflet during pregnancy" wouldn't solve everything, if we changed the culture so that parents understood what was required (like we adopted the 5 a day through culture change) then I think it would help make good standards strong societal norms that will influence people to want to comply.

You've only got to look at this thread to see how many people are saying they only wash their child once a week and only change bed linen monthly or less and think that's OK to realise that some people really do need education to understand that it's really not and they should be aspiring to higher standards. Everyone should understand the standards to which they should aspire, even if they can't necessarily reach them all of the time. When they are failing to meet good standards, they should be reflecting on that, looking at where improvements can be made and seeking help if necessary, not just justifying dirty kids and homes and thinking (wrongly) that it's not harming their children.

You can bleach toilets and sinks, and countertops if they’ve had raw meat on them, but just clean the floor with a wet mop say. Unless you’ve dropped something like raw meat on there or someone has an active infection. You can also get exposure by letting children play with soil.

This thread shows that many people really don't understand what the minimum standards need to be for a good, happy, healthy upbringing.

I don’t think it does, there’s lots of common sense decision making from
posters thinking about their particular circumstances eg children with skin conditions where frequent bathing exacerbates them.

As a child protection social worker, I couldn’t get worked up about bedding changed monthly where kids are washed/bathed, wearing clean pjs, no pets on beds etc. Different into teenage years where hormone changes mean sweat and odour. Too many people think the way that suits them is by default the “one right way” rather than just being their own preference. The morality attached to nightly baths, weekly bed changes etc is quite something and gives no credence to different people having different standards, challenges or priorities.

I'm sorry you were neglected as a child but I don't think bathing only once a week or sheets being washed once a month is neglect.
Your situation was obviously very different and was more than monthly sheet changes and weekly baths.
But I think you are drawing on your own experiences and assuming that children have to bathe once a month and have sheets changed weekly to be properly looked after and that just isn't true.
Your idea is patronising and would do nothing to stop genuine child neglect and abuse.

i didn't once mention taking children into care.

No but you did mention failing to meet arbitrary standards as the basis for social work intervention.

I think the issue here is that obviously there's a huge gulf between meeting "the minimum standards for good parenting" and neglect.

I had similar childhood experiences to OP, and I don't think I was neglected by means. But it sure as hell wasn't "good parenting" when it came to cleanliness and hygiene standards (fortunately it was for me in other areas).

I don't think "not neglected" is the standard we should aspire to for most children. Of course, social workers time should be reserved for those suffering or in danger of suffering from actual abuse or neglect. But equally surely we should aspire to "good" standards of parenting (including hygiene) rather than "not bad enough to be classed as neglect".

So I'm pretty horrified that anyone thinking that once a week body wash or once a month bedding change etc is "good parenting" and the standard to aspire to. No, it's not abusive neglect, but it also certainly isn't good parenting and it's not ideal. In the same way as parents know that 5 a day is a good standard to aspire to (and there's lots of online guidance about how to meet that, meal plans etc), they should also know that weekly bedding change/every other day full body wash/clean clothes daily/hygienically clean and tidy home is also a standard that they should be aspiring to. And if they are regularly failing to meet those standards there should be some support and guidance out there (maybe online guidance / time management guidance / signposting to cleaning routines (think TOMM style) etc. Perhaps at the highest level some kind of guidance counselling that you can self refer to?

I strongly believe we should aim for a society where every child has a good upbringing. Not just one that isn't so poor that it meets the definition of abuse or neglect.

There are zillions of children whose bedding is not changed every week and I can assure you they are not dirty. 🤣
This reminds me of threads about people who wash towels after one use. No wonder we have a global warming problem!