How to bring up boys

[TheLast5Percent]

So that they grow up to be respectful, kind and peaceful men?

Basically what can I as a parent do to minimise the risk of my ds becoming one of the selfish, disrespectful and exploitative men we hear so much about on mumsnet or worse, one of the violent and dangerous men we hear about on the news.

My ds is still a toddler but funnily enough he is already a lot more violent and volatile than dd was at that age. It could be of course that he is just a typical toddler and dd was the odd one but every time I have raised it with any of the staff at his nursery they have all said something like "we shouldn't be saying this but his behaviour is really, really common in boys. He will grow out of it". I guess we know though that not all boys grow out of it. Or maybe they grown out of the toddler tantrums but then grow into adult men tantrums.

Funnily enough ds is super well behaved at nursery. Apparently. Almost timid. A bit like most men I've seen: a bully at home but a puppy outside.

I know namalt and nabalt, etc and ds is really lovely but I think maybe all males have an inherent tendency towards selfishness and violence and I'm wondering if there is anything we csn do to mitigate that? For their own sake and for everyone else?

I'd love to hear what you do if you have sons and share my concerns. Or if you have adult sons or brothers what worked / didn't work so well?

Thank you 😊

So much is personality. My DH’s “D”F is an absolute waste of time and has provided no role model for him, yet my DH is a caring father and a completely unviolent man. He can be very irritable and snappy but he is the opposite of violent/aggressive. As a young person he and other friends would be the ones avoiding fights, whilst some of his friends would be more looking to fight. His DM also put his sister on a pedestal because she was a girl, and whilst I think this has definitely impacted his self esteem, he’s the opposite of so many selfish men I hear about.

I have so many friends with selfish useless partners though, and it’s sad. My DH and I are a parenting team.

My two DS’ are completely different, my eldest has the odd moment but is not violent nor aggressive. My youngest has a very short fuse (as do I, and my own DF) and would be much more prone to fighting, so I need to watch him closer and model more.

Very interesting and makes a lot of sense. I wonder if there are any studies that look at the correlation of whether a boy had female siblings or went to a co Ed school to later behaviour and attitude or maybe criminality.

I have seen studies that show that having an older sister is beneficial in quite a few ways for boys but I think that was linked to academic and professional success though i don't remember exactly.

He has been so far in three different childcare settings and in each one of them the staff have said something along these lines. They are not labelling him or judging him. They were trying to say that this is normal behaviour and I shouldn't worry about it and I assume they were also trying to say that i shouldnt worry just because his behaviour is different from his sister.

Are you saying 'more violent' as in he picks up a toy and launches it at someone several times a day, or more boisterous - heavy handed, running round wild? Because those are typically the differences the nursery workers are talking about being 'normal' for boys.

I think, personally, that holding boys and girls to the same standards is important. I tell my boys to be gentle, kind and respectful. I also tell them not to be bossy. I encourage them to be caring (they adore looking after their baby sister) and engage in being creative, learning how to do housework, etc.

I have friends who have adopted a "boys will be boys" approach and turn a blind eye on their boys playing rough ("I can't stop them, it's natural") and as a result their boys are thuggish in comparison to mine (I find myself constantly stepping in and encouraging them to be gentle, otherwise playdates end in disaster).

I do believe that boys and girls play and communicate differently, but the differences need to be managed and energy channelled appropriately rather than just shrugging and letting them get on with play fighting!

Interestingly, my school age son gets invitations to many of the girls birthday parties whereas most of the boys don't...

Agree with you on Modelling behaviour but unfortunately disagree with you on that only a minority of men are like this or have a tendency to be like this or that they all had rotten dads and selfish mothers.

What a horribly self righteous thing to say.

Many men become abusive during pregnancy. You can't blame their partners for not guessing in advance.

This isn't women's fault

There's a lot to unpack in these questions.

I'm maybe more pessimistic but I believe ther is something dark in everyone's soil, everyone has the ability to be utterly depraved and evil. You can't fight that.

It can be moderated, success, education etc, forming healthy relationships, finding religion, playing sports all help.

It can be exasperated, poverty, bad crowd, poor role models etc.

In terms of how to bring up boys already a lot of great advice here already. Consent conversations is a great way to start.

Ultimately there will be people who are more violent than others. The army is a good place. Disciplined violence.

I'm glad you've stuck with this thread OP and agree that you've said some triggering things that have sent this on a tangent. I think you're asking for advice on raising boys in a world with strong negative gender stereotypes.
As you have a DD you have the opportunity to show consistency. Once you start looking for it you'll notice things everywhere like people calling your DD 'love' and 'darling' but calling DS words like 'mate' and 'champ'. Even kids clothing will say things like 'I'm a winner' on a boys top but 'I'm a princess' on a girls. You have the opportunity to equalise this.
Also my DS13 told me recently that my DH is the only dad out of all his friends who cooks. All the friends he mentioned have working mums so why this is the case I have no idea. If your DH doesn't pull his weight, start this now!

I think this is a great question. I've spent a long time thinking about It, but framed differently. The question that interests me is "how do I raise my boy, given that we live in a society that socialises men towards violence and aggression?".

My DS was born perfect. All babies are. His nature is sweet and caring, even now he's at primary school. He was a delightful toddler, very sweet, gentle and loving. But I know that at least some of the influences that he is going to encounter as he grows will give him the message that violence is cool, that boys are better than girls, that fighting is sometimes the answer, that it's ok to overpower othes with your strength.

As a result, I put more emphasis into counteracting those worries than I would with a girl. For example, we've always been extremely serious about consent. If I ask him to move his hand from my face he needs to do it instantly. If someone doesn't want to be hugged, it's an instant no. We talk a lot about looking after animals and being kind to animals, even insects, and talk about how when you're strong you need to use your strength to protect and help, never to hurt.

With a girl, I'd still talk about all of these things, but I'd focus more on the types of values and language that would help her fight against the messaging that girls get, e.g. that they're second class citizens, that they exist for the pleasure of men, that their looks matter a great deal, and so on.

It's not about thinking that boys are worse or more violent than girls. They're not, little boys are perfect, just as little girls are perfect. It's about knowing that our perfect children grow up in an imperfect and injust society, and having to fight tooth and nail to make sure they don't lose themselves in it as they grow.

Having a good example of a man is really the most important part. If his dad isn't a good man and you don't have good men in your family then find a sport with good male role models. Personally I find BJJ type things good. Teaches them self control, respect, the men I know in martial arts, especially that teach kids classes are truly lovely blokes.

I think one of the biggest issues for men is managing their emotions. So you model how to manage your emotions. How to express them. Particularly anger. Healthily. You hold firm boundaries for how they treat you. Just becuase you're upset or angry doesn't mean you can shout at me. We don't shout at the people we love.

Don't stay in an unhealthy relatiohsip. If he sees you allowing a man to treat you poorly he's going to grow up to think that's how you treat women.

Teach him to clean up his messes. He spills something you give him a cloth to wipe it up. He puts his dirty clothes in the laundry basket. Get him involved in helping as possible. Washing the pots is so much bloody harder with a toddler "helping" but it teaches him that it's a normal part of his life.

The former. I have got no problem with running wild or being boisterous. I think all kids should be encouraged to let their hair down and be wild and just have fun.

When he is upset he will hit, bite, pull hair, scratch or throw things at you. Mostly at me or his sister. But he only does this when he is upset, ill or tired so I don't think it's out of the range of normal behaviours that you can expect from a toddler. That's what they said in nursery at least. He also never behaves like this at nursery. He is very well behaved apparently but I think that is because as some one has said he feels more comfortable at home.

This

No I don’t think all men have an inherent tendency to selfishness and violence but I do think how they are parented by their fathers impacts them a lot.

My husband is a soft, gentle person and my boys have turned out the same. They are 16 and nearly 19 now.

Yes this is pretty much what I do and i think teaching consent and respect from an early age on are key. I do try to be consistent though E.g. I tell both kids exactly the same about consent ( and enforce it rigorously and pretty much the same) but I guess with dd the motivation is for her to learn to stand up for herself and to say no and for ds to learn to respect others. I expect dd to treat ds respectfully as well and e.g. not to hug him when he has made it clear he doesn't want to but I am hoping by modelling to him thst I.take his consent seriously he will learn to apply it to others as well.

Both have to learn all of these things but I think they might face different challenges and different expectations and I do think that partly due to society but also partly due to how we have evolved (difference in testosterone, eg) the key message they need to take away is slightly different.

E.g. and this is unrelated to sex, but my dd has always been very cautious so I always told my dh to go easy on the warnings. She already is very cautious by nature..she doesn't need to be reminded of risks or be encouraged to be cautious whereas other kids who aren't that aware or bothered about physical risks might do need the reminder. I think when it comes to sex and gender difference something similar might be required

Keep in mind that boys and men get a hard time on MN because it is mostly women here and of course, people aren't going to post (very often) about how amazing the men in their life are. So you do get a skewed perspective.

I have 2 lovely (now 19 and 21 year old sons). They are great. Everyone has always told me how polite they are. They work hard. They are respectful (both have lovely girlfriends). I am separated from their dad but it is amiable and he is a super and always been very dedicated father.

I think team sport is really important for both girls and boys. Mine played in the local football team from a young age, one now plays a lot of basketball, they both climb with their dad and my eldest now lives somewhere he can surf every day. They both also did Scouts.

All my sons male friend are lovely guys. In my experience of having always been very welcoming to my sons friends and them being in my house, it was more often the girls I had more problems with. One was so disrespectful to me in front of my son and a group of friends that my son immediately told her not to speak to me that way (I was so proud of him for that). Friends with girls tell me about online bullying and cliques; I never experienced either with my sons (thank goodness).

Just enjoy them! Boys are brilliant.

I really had a zero tolerance approach to violence. Tantrums are not violence per se- they are a child trying to communicate. But when it escalated into violence, that was my red line. No rough play at all. No pretend play with guns/weapons. I also give them the chance to engage in other play. When they were little we had a lot of Happyland toys and small world toys and I would play with them even though I found it deathly dull. Small girls are also socialised into obedience and stillness and doing crafts. I socialised my kids into seeing quiet time, reading time, craft time, board game time as valuable family time while giving them plenty of time outdoors as well.

My husband who is a kind person models the behaviour I would like to see them adopt as well. He is an equal partner and husband who doesn't need a manual for how to look after them when I am away. And doesn't see his career as being more important than mine etc. As a dual academic family, he's allowed me to rise through the career ranks by frequently taking a step back himself.

Yes, there is toxic masculinity in the outside world, but if you equip them with the correct moral and critical tools at home (and your household is not unequal) then as he grows up he will have the critical skills to not engage with/push back against misogyny when he sees it.

My son absolutely has those traits associated with being a boy. I don't know why others on here are flaming you @TheLast5Percent for pointing it out. Yes, there are loads of non-stereotypical boys in his class at school. But he and his little buddies are the loud, boisterous, fighting stereotype. No, I'm not a fan of it and yes, we massively try to socialise him to be caring, empathetic and kind. Which is working. But still, those loud physical traits are in there.

If I'm 100% honest, I'd prefer a bookish boy. BUT I love the one I have. It's definitely nature with him, rather than nurture. But it is what it is. I wouldn't swap him for the world. Loud as he is 😆

Why do you think you can teach your son about being a respectful man?

It's like a man saying they are going to teach their daughter to be a respectful and peaceful and not abusive.

Boys learn how to be respectful and non-abusive from watching how their father treats their Mother. They learn from other men. That's why male role models are so important. It's no surprise that the majority of male teenagers who are involved in criminality come from single mother households.

If you want your son to grow up to be respectful and not violent, make sure he is surrounded by men who are like that.

"When he is upset he will hit, bite, pull hair, scratch or throw things at you. Mostly at me or his sister" and the consequences should be swift for that. Ignore him and give lots of love and sympathy to your DD to show him it is not to be tolerated.

I think the only thing to add is I never shouted at my children unless they were in danger. Talking to them about what they did wrong was never done by shouting, I grew up in a shouty household and hated it, everyone communicated by shouting if you were upset or annoyed or frustrated.

Acknowledge the feeling, I can see you are frustrated or cross (tended not to use the word angry) but we do not throw/hit/bite. As a 5'4" woman with a 6'3" Dh and having two boys I knew they would be taller and stronger than me by 12 so a look would have to stop them dead. Both of them are just under 6 foot and are now adults. Dh modelled excellent behaviour; kindness, fun, caring, thoughtful behaviour. It started young, taking them shopping to buy birthday gifts for people to make thinking of others a core aspect of their personality.

Dh is built to play rugby, he is a giant of a man but a marshmallow, gentle, sweet and still leaves me love notes in the fridge after more than 25 years of marriage. The children see this. As your child gets older point out characters in books or tv shows that are not nice or are lovely and help them see what constitutes that. They don't have to see it in real life. It is everywhere. I am looking at you Bingo on Bluey and yes I watch it because it is epic.

I noticed a huge difference from birth between DS and DD.

Both are great, DS is much more selfish than DD, it may be that he is younger.

In school, the boys are definitely rough and jeer each other with personal insults aged 9.

I have so far raised DS to be a kind, friendly, loving boy, he would never bully anyone, but he is tough too, which sadly is playing into macho territory, he will defend himself and those weaker, so far verbally.

I'm glad in a way that he is tough, it's a jungle out there, the balance is very fine though in ensuring that he knows to make good choices, respect others.

If you must compare, compare him to other second children instead. Your first child didn't have an older sibling with cool toys she wasn't allowed to try to eat getting half the attention. Kids react when the world doesn't revolve around just them, he'll get over it.

Sounds like you have personal issues with men. And dont compare your children its unhealthy.

Most young children are lovely. They all have their quirks and issues, they all go wrong sometimes and need to be helped and corrected, and sometimes they act out because of inadequate boundaries or poor parenting. But even when they need guidance, most are lovely. Including boys. I particularly love 8 year olds - boys and girls. Old enough to be interesting and knowledgeable about things they are into, young enough to have boundless energy and enthusiasm.

Most young children also believe in fairness and gender equality. They think girls can do anything they want and they think boys can do anything they want. They think chores should be shared out fairly and everyone should help.

Young children, and their mothers, aren't the problem, in most cases. The problem is what happens to boys following puberty and continues into adult life, when they're trying to work out their own place in the world and how this relates to everyone else.

The problem is this - adult men, as a group, set boys a horrendous example of misogyny, casual sexism, violence, laziness and male privilege. This example permeates every home, whether there is a father present or not, where one parent does more than their fair share and carries the household and the other 'opts out' to a greater or lesser degree. Some children will be more susceptible to this example than others.

Mothers are not really the problem here. So sadly they're probably not the largest part of the solution either.

I think half your problem is nursery workers accepting this as typical boys behaviour. Changing nursery won't fix it though as the attitude is endemic. You need a no acceptance attitude to 'bad' behaviours for boys in exactly the same way we have for girls. But this needs to come from nursery, school, home, friends, family, media, news, etc. And we cannot control all of that.

I'm patent to an autistic child who can have violent meltdowns. I have an autistic dd too. She doesn't even need to have a meltdown to be corrected- more is just expected of her. And I'm in support of high expectations within the scope of a child's ability. My criticism isn't people are too harsh with dd it's that poor behaviour from ds is acceptable and reinforced by everyone. If I raise it with settings I get told I'm too harsh he's autistic, boys generally are this way etc etc. I don't care frankly! I expect him to have the support he needs to manage his behaviour appropriately and I do accept and understand his additional needs as a reason for his higher levels of challenging behaviour but I will not accept it as an excuse. If he's hurt someone else REGARDLESS of the reason I expect him to have a consequence not be told it's not his fault!! I will bend over backwards and move mountains for him when he's told me he's struggling, if he's told me he's struggling and tried to not kick off o don't give a consequence but if he's just kicked off without effort or considering others then he gets a consequence (and I focus effort on what led to it not happening again but it's not used as an excuse).

But I'm fighting a loosing battle. Grandparents day father etc etc literally everyone will correct dd for stuff ds is just allowed to do. Dd is expected to give priority to ds. They are both autistic but he's a boy so always less is expected of him.

I'm firm at home but all this means is as he gets older and sees I'm firm compared to others is he thinks I'm the bad guy and mean and it undermines my efforts.

I've now pulled dd out of school due to the horrendous behaviour from the boys in her class. She couldn't play in the playground as their games took priority. When she tried she got injured and the school response was she keep away from the boys not boys need to take more care of others! She got bullied and picked on but she would get in trouble for her autistic questions that others have taken as insulting.

I've pulled her from school for multiple other reasons but this was a big one. And that hasn't stopped the patriarch influence it seeps in from everything it feels like

We don't parent I'm a vacuum. Obviously we have to do our best but alone we are not enough. Society and institutions need to change

Have you heard yourself? Would you not find it offensive if someone said there were lots of parents who thought they had raised a nice girl but in fact they were manipulative bitches, for example?