How to bring up boys

[TheLast5Percent]

So that they grow up to be respectful, kind and peaceful men?

Basically what can I as a parent do to minimise the risk of my ds becoming one of the selfish, disrespectful and exploitative men we hear so much about on mumsnet or worse, one of the violent and dangerous men we hear about on the news.

My ds is still a toddler but funnily enough he is already a lot more violent and volatile than dd was at that age. It could be of course that he is just a typical toddler and dd was the odd one but every time I have raised it with any of the staff at his nursery they have all said something like "we shouldn't be saying this but his behaviour is really, really common in boys. He will grow out of it". I guess we know though that not all boys grow out of it. Or maybe they grown out of the toddler tantrums but then grow into adult men tantrums.

Funnily enough ds is super well behaved at nursery. Apparently. Almost timid. A bit like most men I've seen: a bully at home but a puppy outside.

I know namalt and nabalt, etc and ds is really lovely but I think maybe all males have an inherent tendency towards selfishness and violence and I'm wondering if there is anything we csn do to mitigate that? For their own sake and for everyone else?

I'd love to hear what you do if you have sons and share my concerns. Or if you have adult sons or brothers what worked / didn't work so well?

Thank you 😊

Get a new nursery. Stop perpetuating this myth that boys are boisterous and violent. There have been many studies that prove that we put these traits on children depending on which sex we perceive them to be. Our nursery certainly doesn’t adhere to this outdated thinking, find somewhere that doesn’t label your child because of their sex.

It's an interesting one because when I look around at my male friends (and DP) who are good men, there isn't a common thread in how they were brought up. I have a friend who was raised in the most traditional, rigid family when it came to gender roles - he disliked it so much that he swore to go the opposite way as an adult. And then I have male friends whose respect for women and non-aggressive attitudes obviously derive from being brought up in progressive households where that was just the norm.

My working theory (purely anecdotal but a couple of aforementioned male friends agree) is that mixed-gender socialising as teenagers is crucial. I think boys who don't hang out with girls during the period where they're starting to be intensely attracted to them can develop some very strange ideas, which at root are about seeing girls as "the other". Boys and girls who are friends tend to see each other as "on the same side" when it comes to navigating adolescence, growing up, finding their way in the world, rather than on opposite sides.

Relatedly, a man who has female friends is always, always a green flag when dating.

Mixed-gender socialising tends to come from mixed-gender hobbies. For me, that was anything artistic. Music, reading, photography etc aren't really gendered activities. Somewhat surprised to see sport mentioned so much - the benefits of the exercise are crucial of course, but all-male sports teams are an absolute hotbed of misogyny. Locker room talk and all that.

I think it also helps if you don't think men are inherently prone to violence, and if you don't think the male sex drive is inherently disgusting.

My sons are 38 and 39 and have never been selfish nor violent and have respect for those around them.
They copy what is around them as children, so show him respect and have respect for others.
It's only a small amount of men that act the way you seem to think that men are naturally like. I bet they all had rotten dads and selfish mothers.

In my opinion your male toddler feels safe enough to let off steam when he's with you. At his age he needs to be doing lots to engage his core and will have surges of testosterone that he needs active play which can look quite aggressive.
He's not being aggressive to other children etc at nursery because it's not his safe place with his main care giver - you.
Channeling his energy into sports and learning opportunities to control his frustration such as within a structured activity will be great as he ages.
But the concern that he might turn into a nasty person lies with his environment in my opinion. If the people he love are showing him it's okay to behave negatively towards people because they are different and more vulnerable, he will do the same.

I'm going to be honest that this thread has really upset me. My parents saw the difference between a boy and girl just as you did - boy violent bully, girl calm & therefore normal - and never saw anything wrong with it. They got it so wrong and they destroyed my brother. Those labels messed him up and they viewed him as a violent bully too and always patented him that way simply because they completely didn't understand the difference between boys and girls.

As an adult he's a mess and I never got the lovely adult relationship with him I could have had with him and I've had to see that effect on him and it's horrific.

You sound exactly like them (OP not post I've quoted here, which I agree with).

They tried it on with my son at the same age when he was little too - it was very nasty - same words - violent, aggressive malicious - etc. We are low contact with them now because of it. My son has consistently got good behaviour records and comments at home and school, and is usually chosen to show new kids (boys & girls) around at school because he's so kind.

Don't want you to feel I'm getting at you OP but I don't want to see this happen again to another kid!!

Ok. My boys are 13 and 9 so we've not got through the teenage years yet, so take it all with a pinch of salt.

First, there's plenty of research to show that we all unconsciously socialise our kids into gender roles, to a greater or lesser extent, pretty much from the moment we know their sex. And the more people they spend time with, the stronger that association is likely to be. So to a degree it's inescapable and you have to work within the system we've got.

My boys aren't perfect. They scrap and scuffle, they wind each other up mercilessly but that's siblings.

We have never, ever accepted any "boys will be boys" bullshit. Zero tolerance, we challenged it every time from a young age. We worked hard to make sure that we had really clear boundaries in place and enforced them pretty ruthlessly.

At the same time we didn't demonise "boy things" in favour of girl things or vice versa. DS2 got a huge amount of joy from his dolls house for years - he's a storyteller and it was perfect for him. But he's also nuts about hot wheels and even now he and the Big Cool Teenager can happily spend hours in complicated car racing tournaments. DS1 is in the county basketball playoffs but he's also a shit hot baker and likes to experiment with flavours.

And I think it's important to be open and recognise that from their perspective there will be times that it feels like the odds get stacked against them. The one day a week where it's "girls only" in the MUGA at school makes perfect sense from a societal or even community-wide perspective, but if you're 7 and there's not an equivalent for boys, then it hits differently and it needs both acknowledgement and explanation while still supporting the principle.

This is something that we're encountering in a more serious way with DS1 as he gets exposed more to the "straight white men" discourse - we've had some serious chats about the nature of meritocracy, some of the structural discrimination people experience but also the shortfalls of that sort of discourse if it's applied too simplistically - particularly around how class plays into it. It's actually made more difficult because we've got a very equal household and explaining the inequalities that almost certainly exist in some of his mates' homes has been difficult for him to get his head around.

The most important thing is role modelling. It's not an accident that the kids have a father who does his share (and probably more than his share) of housework and childcare. We shared the parental leave. We both work a compressed week. We cook pretty equally. He does more of the laundry, I'm better at DIY. DS1 wants to go on an expensive school trip, he earns part of the cost through taking on additional chores.

I don't think there's a magic formula and I'm dreading the next ten years, especially as DS2 is a much trickier character than DS1. But so far openness, talking and having clear standards has worked for us.

Also - we found primary school to be the absolute worst in terms of reinforcing regressive gender roles and teachers were sometimes as much of an issue as the influence of other parents and what the boys are like and what girls are like become self-reinforcing stereotypes. I think as dreading secondary and thought it was going to be even worse but I've been pleasantly surprised.

DS1 has a mixed group of friends for the first time in years, his male friends have a variety of hobbies (one is into knitting, cricket and Warhammer), and the discourse around "the boys" and "the girls" seems to be much less rooted in the 1960s. It may be that our primary is a massive outlier but given the discourse around what girls are like and what boys are like, somehow I doubt it.

I agree with this. I have an adult ds who is amazing. Funny kind and loving.

I would add specifically though its implied in 1 and2 I feel its a point of its own

Expect of him what you expect of his sister.
So no sis helps in the kitchen ds helps dad in garden.

Teach hin to do the laundry washing up and Expect him to tidy after himself. Do not let them become " women's jobs"

Ds went to uni and returned going "mum one of the guys couldn't cook pasta"
Vegetarian dd2 had to teach a friend how to check if chicken was cooked.
Equip both children to live independently.
For me they had to be able to cook a roast dinner. As once you can organise the timing of a roast you can manage most cooking.

The one out of this thread that actually talks some sense. The fact that OP doesn't want her son to grow up that way, is because she is a caring mum seeking advice.

Jeez 🙄 what a shame we can't all be perfect. Some perfect mums have raised serial killers.

Toddlers regardless of sex are not violent. By making the unfair assumption that all males will turn out toxic you are contributing to the problem. If its boys or girls, the best thing parents can do is care for their emotional wellbeing, teach manners and resilience and encourage them to contribute to family life early on (give them little chores that they can manage so they know everyone is equal in your family unit). It’s not easy to do all this but true parenting never was.

Whilst parenting is important, the society that your son will live in as he grows is also important. Our society at the moment is angry, fractured and gives some fairly negative messages to boys and young men.

When children grow beyond parental influence in adolescence the messages from the world around can displace even the best parenting.

I think where you live, the relationships you have in your own life and the tone of the school your son will go to will have a big influence on his life.

It really isn't as simple as you doing things 'right'.

This really resonates. DH has female friends he's had since uni and I agree that healthy female friendships are a green flag in guy and important that boys are able and encouraged to form those friendships as a precursor to being able to see girls and women as whole people, not just as potential girlfriends/sexual partners.

And I think that's the difference between toxic masculinity and just plain fine masculinity - the ability to see women as whole, equal human beings.

This.

I don't think you need to do anything different for male children. It's just about modelling kind behaviour and teaching them how to deal with their emotions - name them, talk about them, find strategies deal with them and teaching how to respect their own and other peoples boundaries

I recommend a book called "Raising Boys" by Stephen Biddulph. It's been around for a while, but recently updated. It emphasises the need for good role models.

At various developmental stages DS struggled to articulate whatever was wrong and occasionally would lash out. Boys do gain language skills slower than girls and he needed addtional support then.
School and nursery didn't help as they basically put a "nice girl" in to talk for him. Not at all helpful or nice to the poor girl.

Male here, 2 lovely sons both in their mid to late 20's. You have a long hard journey ahead but make sure they come up in a loving household, give them your time, do things with them, love them through the difficult teen years even when it feels it isn't reciprocal, they will remember once those years pass. Main thing is giving them your time, it costs nothing and means everything.

Has your child ever had a massive meltdown in the supermarket as a toddler? Mine has. Its very normal toddler behaviour. Just as its very normal toddler behaviour to go through a hitting/biting phase. Its normal for older children to go through a "defiant" phase, its normal for teenagers to be arseholes at certain points of adolescents. None of that means they will be bad people as adults. But there is a difference between "understanding something is a normal phase" and "doing nothing to discourage the behaviour" or even encouraging it ("thats my boy)." Small children don't understand that certain behaviours are bad which is why its parents jobs to teach them (in an age appropriate way). I have noticed (anecdota not data) that boys seem to have more difficulty (on average) to emotionally regulate themselves at times and are slower at learning verbal skills. But its my job to teach my son those skills and to help him learn. And if boys (or anyone) need a little extra help then so be it. There is maybe a reason Stoical philosophy was pushed in traditional boys schools.

I think sometimes the phase "typical boy" or "boys will be boys" is a way of helping parents not feel bad about normal behaviour. Like the phrase "terrible twos". Its fine. Its when its used as an excuse not to correct the behaviour/model good behaviour its a problem. In the same way parents gushing about their "free spirit" as he/she shaves the cat and draws on the sofa are missing the point. I do think the "masculine nature" people have more in common with crunchy gentle parents than either would want to admit.

So I guess, understanding that boys (and all children) will act out in unhelpful ways sometimes and not stigmitising that. But also channeling their behaviour into healthy lines and correcting. And boys can be really lovely just as girls can.

Just parent him normally. Honestly, why do people blow these things up into huge problems.

Mumsnet: men are awful, and their behaviour should be called out
Also Mumsnet: by saying men are awful, you've already given up on your son, how dare you say that when you have a male toddler

I know what you're saying OP

I'd suggest:

• when they're little, helping them verbalise their emotions and show them how to deal with it. It's OK to say 'I'm really frustrated and feeling angry so going to have some time out'
• show them that it's OK to cry
• get them involved in competitive sport (maybe not one with a horrible culture)

When they are older

• giving them alternative strategies to deal with anger eg how to argue without raising your voice or name calling or other aggressive behaviour
• keep talking to them about sexism, male behaviour, unfairness etc. I talk to my daughters 7 and 9 about things like gender pay gap, fairness of roles at home (don't put up with men saying they don't see mess etc, they already know that having a penis doesn't mean men can't hoover etc) and explain why men like Andrew Tate are wrong, before they start listening yo their friends about it
• model respectful and equal relationships at home

Yes, he has and I absolutely agree with you with everything you have said.

I'm not overly concerned at his behaviour now but I am concerned about the behaviour of men. I think my op was misleading and had too many unnecessary tangents and I'm probably to blame for derailing my own thread.

Yes, all toddlers still have to learn about emotional regulation, empathy and all the executive functions that help them manage their behaviour. That is developmentally appropriate and not a problem. Based on what nursery have said boys do on average seem to tend to lash out more than girls at this age and that is also developmentally appropriate. And I do think though some might disagree that men have a higher propensity for selfish and violent behaviour than women. Statistics will back me up on this one. Perhaps evolutionary and biologically the way men are makes sense but it doesn't serve us well now. Neither humanity at large nor individuals.

if we can mitigate this tendency by actively using strategies to help boys then I want to do that. I know as a parent my impact is limited and later his peers and society at large will play a much bigger role in shaping him but this is all that I can do.

Before I had my son I would have vehemently disagreed with statements like "typical boy" behaviour but I think you make a very good point that yes, at this age this behaviour is normal for all kids and maybe more so for boys and we shouldn't stigmatise it but at the same time we also shouldn't ignore or encourage it just because it is normal.

It's not that boys or even men are bad or evil or whatever moral judgment you can attach to behaviour. It's not a boy's fault that males have evolved to be this way or that till recently society encouraged them to be this way. I just think if we intervene early we can try to teach them a better and gentler way of behaving and that would be good for everyone.

It was sarcastic - In other words - don't be so ridiculous to suggest a toddler is "violent" if he really was "violent" you'd be needing him seen to !!

I have two boys. My husband is the best person to mould them into good men. My boys see my husband doing as much around the house as me, they hear him thanking me for cooking or for doing something for him, he explicitly points out things that I do for them and how thoughtful and kind it is. He talks about me and the other women in our children’s lives with respect and affection. He gives them so much time and never loses his temper, in fact has never raised his voice to them or said an unkind word. I think this daily modelling is essential to raising good men

I have two adult sons and they’ve never brought any trouble to my door. They are sensible, kind, loving and hard working. At lot depends on parental attitudes whilst they are growing up. We didn’t stand for bad behaviour (obviously) plus who they choose as friends is important. Set standards that they don’t want to fall short of.

I think there needs to be an appreciation of the role that testosterone plays in the development of toddler boys. A lot of these behaviours that we might see in toddlers and young boys is normal and linked to the increased presence of testosterone compared to girls. More aggressive or dominant behaviour is linked to the hormone, and I think that it's important to give boys a healthy, safe outlet for their natural behaviours with clear boundaries and expectations of what and what isn't appropriate.