Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

@HeyDrake ASD parent here who is teacher 👋 Agree with eveything you have said. I’m sure there are some parents who think my son is disruptive - he has Tourette’s also (doesn’t swear to clear up that misconception but makes noises and echoes) - but even if he didn’t exhibit this behaviour he doesn’t meet the threshold for a special school. He’s in Yr 6 and on target for ‘’mastery’ is his SATs. EHCPs are given to protect children and help them access the curriculum - it’s not a certificate for lawlessness.

'I think if exclusions were getting in the way of the parents lives, they’d soon ensure their kid behaved better.' No, exclusions already happen and then mum has to drop out of work, then the family struggle financially and become stressed which worsens behaviour and all long term outcomes.

I have seen that time and time again.

I’m mid thirties and can’t remember anything like the kind of behaviour my DC regularly tell me happens in their classrooms when I was in primary in the 90s. I remember one boy who shouted out at times but he was never violent towards the teacher or students.

My eldest is in Y4 and there are a couple of boys who regularly throw things at the rest of the class, are violent and are generally disruptive. Last winter one of them took her coat off her and threw it into a puddle at break time. The class has regular ‘table moves’ yet my daughter mysteriously ends up sitting beside one of them each time. Whenever I complain the only thing I ever get back is ‘there is a bigger picture here, it’s not a behaviour issue.’

I will not teach my daughters that this treatment is normal and that she should be inclusive and more understanding. What type of message does it send to her that she should tolerate violence as the person behaving that way can’t help it? We wouldn’t accept it in any other environment.

EHCPs absolutely can be given for prolonged shit behaviour, and the criteria and quality of some diagnoses are shocking. Autism and ADHD are used as a catch all diagnosis for behaviour issues that no one can be bothered to further address.

I thought there are now more special school places and units attached to mainstream than ever before. The rise in these behaviours is what needs addressing, and parenting has a massive role to play.

If you solve the parenting and chaotic family issues, your SEN in school will be much better. Schools can’t be expected to solve those issues.

I love secondary because poor behaviour is much less tolerated. And why do we expect teachers in a class of 30 to be able to adopt to four or five individual requirements?

This is why people pony up for private schools, not because they feel like caving in their life savings, because there is no recourse in state school. At our private prep school the child would either be excluded or the parents expected to pay for a 1:2:1 support worker for their child (invoiced to them). The issue is that SEN applies to so many children, so in that sense it’s a very mainstream issue, with only the most profoundly SEN children being eligible for a specialist school. Anyone know how many additional teachers Labour has supplied so far? I daresay that may help.

@EarsUpTailUp

I actually disagree, parenting a child with additional needs is hard but with the right techniques, putting in boundaries etc many can be taught good behaviour and be cooperative, whereas there are many children with echp in school which is more down to chaotic homes than any serious underlying medical issues, ask any senco!

Obviously there are children where no amount of specific parenting skills, early interventions and teaching techniques will rectify the situation (or crucially prevent) but the idea that every disruptive child can't be helped is fuelling the crisis in schools, we need to be looking at home lives.

Absolutely. My year 1 daughter has come home saying children in her year are playing 'squid games' and mimicking killing each other - this is a leafy village primary. They are clearly getting excessive and non age appropriate screen time.

I'm the same age and remember lots of poor behaviour in my local comprehensive: kids throwing things in class, smoking, fights in the toilets, pushing other kids in bushes, bullying of the teachers (including homophobic and racist bullying), kids setting the fire alarms off, people climbing on desks and trying to remove the ceiling square things.

This was in a leafy home counties area and the school was always ofsted good or outstanding.

what a nonsense. My child has very severe SEHM needs and doesn't have ADHD (and it's the best behaved in class including the previous mainstream school).

@shockeditellyou but there are kids with behavioural or learning difficulties who don't have autism, like my dd. I mean what does autism even mean anymore? It doesn't describe needs. If I say 'an autistic child' it could be the kid in the corner cowering with their hands on their ears or the kid throwing a chair at him. Or someone who is neither of those, but sat in class not learning.
So how do resource bases help all of those different kids? How do the noise sensitive, overwhelmed kids get any respite when the noisy, disruptive kids are also in the resource base?
We should have a needs, not diagnosis led system. Challenging behaviour is one need, low stimulus is another need. Rather than 'let's stick all the kids that don't fit in one room because they're all the same right?'

Schools can’t force a child to move to a better suited setting. It has to be in agreement with parents. It takes a long time
for parents to recognise that there are better settings to meet a child’s needs mainly because the quality of those settings is wildly variable.

SEMH is not ADHD it’s Social, emotional mental health.

I work in all the primary schools in my borough.It's becoming the same with every school.No specialist provision available or child doesn't meet threshold and is battling to find a place.Teachers doing their best to teach whilst managing a child or several who cannot cope with the classroom and is acting that out.Dysregulated children in the corridors with a TA watching to keep them safe.Chairs being thrown, teachers being hit, children telling us they feel unsafe, family support workers based in schools to help.If you think I'm exaggerating I've been doing this for 6 years and it's got worse every year and definitely not just in the schools which are in the more deprived parts of the borough -although those schools are a real eye opener.I don't know what you can do. I feel sorry for the other children in class, the child, the teachers and the parents but that doesn't mean your child should be missing learning or being scared in school.

Drives me wild as a teacher. The same child has disrupted the lessons for all teachers for 3 years, becoming worse as he grows. I think the OP’s only relief might be if the child goes somewhere different to hers, although given the amount of casual admissions/managed moves in my area, I wouldn’t be amazed if he/she reappeared.

My dd has a little boy in her class in year 4 who throws chairs etc. he has 1:1. If the situation is bad he is taken out by 1:1 which according to my dd is most of the time. His mum is very proactive and is trying to get him into a more suitable school but he's not bad enough. The school is doing all they can to build a case to support the mum.

Please don't accept this answer. We did for a while and my daughter ended up with mental health issues of her own, refusing school, refusing to eat, unable to sleep, coming home with scratches and bruises on her arm. On the 5th day she cried inconsolably at having to go in, I kept her home, called the head and told her that I would be keeping her home until the school could guarantee her physical safety and that they would sit her next to a child who she felt safe with.

The head promised she would get her moved, that was 2 years ago and never again has she been sat next to a child who hurts her. I appreciate that I have only passed the issue onto a other child, that I am 'that parent', but my daughter is my responsibility and it's my role to protect her.

Teacher here. Unfortunately it’s not just one these days but in our school more than half the classes have this problem. Parents should be more vocal about it. Government should be funding better (have a nurture/SEND unit on site).

@GruffalosGirl

This is interesting. I'm going through similar. My DD is on a diagnosis pathway. She has had a couple of suspensions, detention 90% of days and visits the internal exclusion room regularly.

I was dreading parents evening. Actually apart from the two lessons I knew she struggled with it was pretty good and in some cases great.

She is engaged, got good assessment scores etc etc.

It then twigged that all her behaviour issues either relate to those 2 lessons or are around stuff outside learning - being where she shouldn't be at lunchtime etc. problem is all those exclusions (and interventions) means she misses the lessons she enjoys and is engaged in.

I keep reading about how hard it is to get a ECHP but why? A relative had a child who didn't speak. No bad behaviour the child had a ECHP by the time he was in reception ( helped by interested parents and the SENCO at nursery ). Also got a place in a special class that's geared towards speech problems.

Now moving to mainstream for year 3. ECHP has given prioriy onchoice of schools to attend therefore avoiding the local crappy one and going for a smaller stricter one
.

In elementary school it's really hard to exclude a child permanantly. In secondary though (atleast In my DS's state school) they have suspended children with disabilities. An autistic boy who overturned his desk and hit his 1:1 got suspended on the spot. School's reasoning is that they won't tolerate any violent behaviour no matter what diagnosis you have. They do have a tolerance for minor nuisances due to disabilities though lucky for my son who sometimes make noises or farts In class.

@Gogogo12345 the amount of work that an EHCP takes for those 'not clear cut' children is a lot. It's hours per week for roughly a year. Chasing and chasing and chasing. Reading through drafts, knowledge of legal frameworks, meetings with school etc.

Document any injuries to your child.
Write politely with concerns about disruption.
The school may actually be grateful for this.

when it happened in DC‘s class with a few kids with SEN but no 1:1 and was escalating we moved them to a different school. Your child should not be subjected to this.

This is happening right from nursery age in classrooms and there is little funding or support at that point as we write the first EHCPs ready for school support.

Some of the children we saw with the worse behaviours are now in specialist settings but for some of them it’s taken from them to right year three or more to get it. The ones with more obvious SEN such as violent behaviour with autism get help quicker than those who have no obvious SEN when younger as theirs tends to be more behavioural
and I think these children are in mainstream longer as their help starts later.

I’m interested in hearing about anyone who has tried taking legal action against the local authority for damaging their child’s education and or mental health through unaddressed bullying or violence. Does this work? It is scandalous that we LA’s just shrug their shoulders about this sort of classroom disruption but can the be made to do anything about it?

It is such a dilemma. The decision was taken some years ago to opt for a policy of integrated education rather than "special schools" .... for laudable reasons of the principle of inclusion.
Like many other laudable policies (e.g. care in the community) it was a great idea BUT .... the necessary funding and facilities to make it work were not forthcoming, so now everyone has the worst of all worlds.
Cash strapped LAs sought ways of saving money by closing special facilities under the banner of inclusion and look where it has got us.