Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

Honestly, we have a couple of kids like that in my child's class.

They have an assistant with the class who takes them out, or, if that's not safe (eg. he's getting violent), the whole class goes to the school hall while they deal with him.

The kids are used to it. DS does get annoyed that the poorly behaved kids tend to just get what they want/get dojo points for the bare minimum and I've had the 'what's good behaviour for you isn't the same as what's good behaviour for them' and pointed out that on the whole, it's a lot harder life not being the kid that can't control themselves, and would they really want extra dojo points, but to struggle with their maths work, and they get it - obviously still get annoyed if it disrupts something they're enjoying, but they do get it.

I think the trouble is, what do you do with these children - special school places are like gold dust, and if these kids are otherwise academically pretty average and able bodied, then those schools might not be the right place anyway - those spaces are needed for children who have additional needs, not just behavioural issues.

1 million percent agree with you. Society is so addicted as a whole to screen time that it is affecting our ability to communicate appropriately with each other massively! I see babies in prams with phones in their faces on my commute to work each morning and it makes me so sad :-(

@BeDeepKoala ok so what exactly do you suggest I or the school do? You can't punish someone for a learning difficulty as much as you might like to. There have always been children like mine, and there always will be. Schools are much stricter than they were, and there is less play, less outdoor time, less art, less music, less PE, less movement time. The struggles that schools are facing are the backlash against these rigid curriculums which have no flexibility. When I was a kid there were children who struggled, and the teachers could do lessons outside of the weather was good, or we could chat about football and bring that into the maths lesson if the World Cup was on. Teacher friends tell me there is no flexibility like that anymore.

Almost never parents pursuing mainstream at all costs, I've only seen that for 2 children I know of in the last 10 years.

Parents are usually desperate to get their children into a specialist school. Not enough specialist setting places or LA refusing to fund them are the most common reasons.

Remember everybody.... All behaviour is communication!

SEMH is basically shorthand for ADHD. It sounds like this child needs meds, but I guess nobody apart from mum/teacher would be party to that info.

There’s untreated ADHD in every class in every school and it can be incredibly disruptive.

I also agree screens are a huge contributor. If you have a child with PDA; and you expect them to do something they find boring after being on screens since 6am watching stuff which gets them going and is addictive; you will see the repercussions in the classroom.

we have to ensure the childs safety. You can't have a disregulated child running amok through the school so cant send them out. Also they wouldnt go !!! This scenario is very common. It puts huge pressure on the teacher and if there is no 1:1 support I don't know what you expect one teacher to do ?

Some teacher and staff are subjected to violence from even young pupils regularly and the children don't necessarily mean it as ' all behaviour is communication ' and all that but I think it's appalling the situation we are in right now. A GP or a nurse wouldnt tolerate being kicked and hit by this child..why is it ok because its the teacher/TA.

The class deserve an education uninterrupted by this behaviour. The student in question deserves support which he isn't getting. the teacher is doing their best.. but there is no funding for support. Where will this end ?

Am a teacher. Sadly I have no answers - this is not an unusual problem. However a few thoughts;
private schools expel much more easily. They can face legal challenges but it’s not as difficult to overcome them. (Worked in private sector for years so saw this first hand).
having said that, I saw some truly horrible bullying at both private schools I worked at, worse than the current state school I work at.
there’s no money in the state sector. SEN provision massively underfunded BUT… (and I’ll put my hard hat on here) SEN is being massively over diagnosed in my opinion. Children who thirty years ago would have been seen as naughty are now being given all sorts of labels. Like Pathalogical Demand Avoidance…eg doesn’t like being told what to do?!? My 5yo has that…
poor parenting by some (not all of course). Far far far too much time on phones/tablets. I don’t think tv is the problem. I remember watching loads of stuff on tv as did all my peers. It’s endless scrolling, never switching off etc.

there’s a lot of rose tinted glasses on this thread about education in the 70s/80s/90s. My comp in the 90s was pretty horrible, terrible behaviour and also girls treated like absolute shit.

obviously I’ll stick up for my profession. Most teachers do their best. However it does make me frustrated to see this thread and then a few days later I’ll see another one complaining about their child’s overly strict secondary school where their child was given a sanction for forgetting their pencil case…ok yes annoying if genuine mistake but what if every child in the class isn’t bringing a pen? What if the first 10 minutes is spent giving out pens and then some of the class deliberately break them and smear ink on tables and throw them? (This happened to a colleague regularly.) you can’t have it both ways. Schools can’t be cuddly and inclusive and wonderful and individually focused while also calm and quiet and disciplined and also have lots of funding without tax rises. Anyway rant over.

I’m sorry for your daughter OP. My advice:talk to the head and the teacher. Talk to them -
don’t complain. Actually engage with them.

This is absolutely not my experience as a teacher. There remains a real stigma about SEND in some communities. Even if parents can eventually be persuaded, provision is so limited that it can be very difficult/nigh one impossible to place pupils.

To be 'inclusive'

I'm genuinely surprised about that, both from a personal and professional point of view!

I have been a primary teacher for 20 years and I'm afraid this is just the norm now unfortunately, in fact these days you seem to be lucky if you just have one.

I work in a lovely school in a nice area and we still have multiple children like you have described. My friends who work in more deprived areas have a shockingly bad time and are constantly assaulted and have to evacuate classrooms on a daily basis.

My own son ended up with anxiety last year with how awful his class was, he found it so unsettling and disruptive and hated witnessing how the teacher was treated.

Unfortunately a lot of schools now have a 'communication policy' instead of a 'behaviour policy' which means there are no consequences for actions. The way parenting and teaching has changed is huge.

I work in Scotland and I believe it's even worse here with the 'presumption of mainstream' which means high needs pupils are lumped into large classes in mainstream education without the staff numbers to support them. Your average teacher is not trained on how to deal with these extreme behaviours. It's all for money saving of course. It's very depressing and one of the reasons why do many teachers are leaving.

You could fund proper education - SEN school spaces and pupil referral units - or you could save yourself the expense, throw all kids in mainstream together and give yourselves a big hug for being inclusive.

Guess which one the local authority go with?

It’s ridiculous how much screens are used. I was in a restaurant last week. The child at the next table had a screen … zero interaction with parents. When they decided it was time to leave, they lifted him still with his screen into the pushchair and off they went!
No conversation at all. He did not once take his eyes off his screen.
Very sad.

1:1 support, more movement breaks, safe spaces/sensory rooms where a child can retreat if they are becoming deregulate- there are quite a few strategies that can be applied if there's the will and the funding.

But ultimately if the schools not suitable despite having put in more support, then suspension, exclusion and a move to a more suitable setting.

I'm currently working with a group of children from a school for children with social, emotional and behavioural difficulties. Not one of them would (or did) cope in mainstream.

@ConnieSlow or because there's literally no other option for parents. Contrary to public belief (or at least on MN), these children are not Crackhead Sally's or Dad of 10 Luke's kids, they are often middle class with professional parents who have important jobs like most of MN.
So with my daughter, we have an EHCP, I am invested in her education, I want the best for her, but the only option is mainstream.
If there was another option I would of course explore it.
But I am not taking her out of school. I have a job and another child, I am the sole breadwinner. You would not believe the way some professionals speak to parents of SEN kids 'can't you give up work? You'll get DLA!' I have a professional job, with a mortgage, you're expecting me to get by on DLA and UC alone?
So until the system finds a way, my child will stay in school.

Because they probably won't go out the room when asked. And if they do go out the room who is supervising them?

@Porcuporpoise all of those are in the EHCP.
You can't expel my daughter for staring out the window, ffs

Also when people think consistent 'consequences' will work - I have two severely disabled DC. We went down the sticking to firm consequences every time route for ages and it didn't work at all: everyone was miserable and the behaviours kept increasing happening.

We have learnt along the way but things are so much better now, both at settings and home.

The problem was that no professionals gave us the tools to deal with it, a lot of their advice was based on very old fashioned parenting strategies for neurotypical children. We mostly learnt from watching special school teachers and the training I got as a professional in the field.

School need to better support the child rather than punishing her. If they can not currently meet need they should apply for higher needs funding so she can have 1:1 support. It sounds like she would benefit from some sensory breaks when sh is getting overwhelmed/acting out. They could also do some social skills/stories with her.

Another option is a reduced timetable if she is not coping with the full day or an alternate provision for children with behavioural issues.

This is on the school or the local authority to support her better it should not be impacting on the class like this.

Exactly the same for my DD. She was completely over the disruptive pupils by the end of Y6 and selected a strict girls’ school. I have some sympathy for the schools; mainstream education doesn’t have the funding or expertise to deal with some of the very challenging behaviour some pupils present.

Where do you remove the others to, just out of curiosity?

If they won’t leave, I’d make it so that the SLT need to contact their parents and they will come and do it. If no success with the parents, the child is excluded the next day.

I think if exclusions were getting in the way of the parents lives, they’d soon ensure their kid behaved better. When you can’t go to work (or sit about during the day getting peace), they’d soon act. The onus needs to be on the parents to sort behaviour out from the root cause.

Personally I believe this is due to school now being compulsory.

As you described years ago a lot of these children, especially undiagnosed ADHD or autism could leave school without repercussions on the parents.

I work with vulnerable young people, teenagers mainly and it is important that the staff are relatable. Many of my colleagues did not attend school and dropped out early on.

This is also the case for my partner and many of his friends.

Many picked up a trade early on.

All behaviour IS communication but that doesn’t mean the reason for the behaviour is always because of a disability. Many reasons for BESD are environmental for a whole host of reasons and yes, some of it is due to inadequate parenting.