Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

Tell me you don't work in a school without telling me you don't work in a school.

@Leafy74 I was a secondary school teacher for many years with an interest in SEN.

I note your use of the word 'was'.

Ahhhhh this made me smile (a sad smile though). How long ago was it that you have dealt with EHCPs? Maybe things used to be that way when you were in role, but those days are long gone. It is SO hard to even get an EP to come and do an assessment, even if an ECHNA has been granted! And the only extra support is what is stated on the EHCP. Also, even if professionals state that certain support is needed, that's not always included on thr EHC Plan (it should be, but it's not).

You are right about one thing- that schools/parents can call an early review. However, the thought of that always being 'professionals around the table's laughable and naive. My son's SENCo says the LA case workers have NEVER turned up for a single review in all her time working with children with EHCPs.

I'm sorry to disappoint, but these days things really aren't the way you describe them. At least not in my county. I can't speak for the whole country (although the EHCP groups I'm I'm on social media do paint a pretty consistent picture!).

Wait - I misread this the first time... you weren't even a SENCo? You didn't actually have a key role in processing EHCPs? This explains why you don't know what you're talking about.

This. Where on earth would they go? There aren't just staff floating around at a loose end.

This. Millions of pounds are being poured into the cost of tribunals every year across England. This is because LAs think they are above the law, and so often do not follow lawful procedure when dealing with SEN children. It's disgusting. These children are human and have rights. They need to belong somewhere.

No, it’s because tribunals are still cheaper than an additional 6 months of special provision (sadly) it kicks the can down the road

Yes indeed. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with in my post, but yet, this is EXACTLY why they are breaking the law. It's been all over the media...

Out of genuine interest, what year did you leave teaching?

The whole system is broken. The needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few. Parents should be held responsible for their childrens actions. 20 or 30 years ago there weren't anywhere near this amount of kids with behaviour problems.

30 years ago things like children hitting each other wasn't considered much of a behavioural problem, it was considered pretty normal. Fights in the playground, fights after school - totally normal. 50 years ago teachers hitting kids was normal too.

Agree. My primary school in the early 1990s made Fight Club look like amateur hour. Break time violence was part and parcel for everyone.

But was that a good thing?

Yes but children hitting other kids and even teachers in the classroom during lessons was NEVER normal.

Well said. This is exactly the problem at the moment in education.

Looking back, I’m horrified at the amount of violence that was allowed to go on and wouldn’t allow my children to attend such a place. On the other hand, it made me quite scrappy and impervious to bullying at secondary school. Attempts (verbal) were made but they soon backed off once I got handy with the fists. I actually found the transition to non violent ways of settling disputes at secondary quite odd but got with the program PDQ as it was really cracked down on.

The “6 k “ from the schools fund always makes me laugh when schools moan about this like that 6 k is actually your kids money and it’s actually up to 11k

when the ehcp is funded they deduct what they have already given then school for

butt in seat
butt on seat with free school meal child top up
additional Sen top up

the issue is that the Sen top up money for your child isn’t ring fenced and is put in a “ school Sen budget “

when you receive an ehcp they expect that sum to go towards the ehcp because that already money they are giving the school for your child having SEN the difference is it’s now ring fenced.!

Yeah…my children would never be setting foot in a place like that again!

That is absolutely disgraceful! Get these badly behaved kids out of our schools!

So true! My son has an EHCP (4a, around 5k). He’s in Yr 6 and since Y1 he’s had his own TA (very thankful to school for finding the rest of the TA’s salary!). We have already been told by his high school that he won’t have a TA next year. Do feel like my son is a “cash cow”. Hopefully other aspects of his EHCP will be adhered to. If not, good luck to his teachers and his peers!

David Blunkett closed most special schools in early 2000s when he was Education Secretary. It was all part of the ideology of inclusion. He hated that he was a child who was blind and was sent to a school that catered to his needs as a child with that disability. He was upset he couldn’t go to the local comprehensive like the others. To spare other children the ‘horrors’ of what he went through, he brought about the closure of many special schools and put all children into comprehensives so ‘everyone could me together’.

Interpret that as you will.

Ok, so what happens to the SN children?

There’s still this assumption that this is down to poor parenting, meanwhile in the real world it’s well known that the issue is rising numbers of SEN and lack of support.

In some schools SN numbers are up to 30% and still rising. So where should they all go?

The special schools numbers have declined.
PRU units are down.
Independant specialist schools are down and under further risk thanks to Starmer’s spite tax.

The needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few - at this rate at some point SN will outweigh the rest. How will that be handled?

What’s your plan?

Yes the system is broken, some of us have been warning this for years.

I’ll repeat again, SN children are the canaries in the coal mine. They’ve been falling for years, it’s getting worse and worse. So at what point do regular people accept that SN children are not the problem, but are the early warning system that all is not well.

On a micro scale, because they'll find their niche. My uncle works alone, from home, with his dogs around him. He has a couple of nerdy friends, like him.

He's very happy. We don't all need to follow the married, 2.4 children in Sainbury on Saturday morning pattern.

Which isn’t necessarily a bad idea if you then support the children in mainstream school as they would be supported in specialist so adequate funding for additional staffing etc. the problem is kids are being put into mainstream with little or no additional funding to any other child without Sen in the name of inclusion but really it’s just an attempt to save money.

In some schools SN numbers are up to 30% and still rising.

Realistically, though, with all the will in the world, how can this be accommodated even in specialist schools? As I'm sure you know, the spectrum of needs falling under the umbrella of 'SN' is so vast, and even two kids with the same diagnosis can have needs which contradict one another (e.g. autism - some need quiet and calm, others need noise and movement).

Back in the olden days, specialist schools could accommodate this better, because there wasn't anywhere near 30% of the young population needing to be there. If it's going to keep rising to the point where half or more of the nation's kids require a specialist school (and I accept that not all kids with SN need that, many can be educated in mainstream) - how on earth is any system going to manage that? How are these kids going to go on from there and find meaningful employment, when the numbers are increasing so much?

Are there any other countries where SN numbers are rising like this? How are they managing this in their schools? Are they managing it? Rhetorical questions...