Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

We will have to agree to disagree.

He went to a small village school where he learnt the three Rs (read, write, arithmetic). He wasn’t academic so left school at 14 and worked until he was nearly 80.
He had no tests in that time. He lived a fairly feral life as a child, like other children - out after breakfast, take a sandwich then home for tea.

^

I do think there was lot of value in education like this.

The classroom walls were bare, you sat in silence and you sat at single desks.

At break time you played outside.

Nowadays there's so much stimulation everywhere. On the bloody walls in the classroom, the ubiquitous screens, loud music, lights etc etc.

Plus UPF food.

A lot of kids would be better with a 1930s education

Again, that depends on demographics. A combined income of 40k in London is not easy to live off after rent/mortgage council tax.
As I previously said demographics is a factor.

My friend actually has the opposite issue with apprenticeships where she is struggling to find a placement due to so many being full. Again demographics.
BUT, my main point was years ago many young people who dropped out at a young age could pick up a trade before the age of 16. Now many of these are taken up by apprenticeships from people in compulsory education year 12 & 13.

That’s fair enough.

I had a similar attitude to SN in schools, then my family fell to bits as my son could no longer manage. I now feel like my old way of thinking was a privilege - my life was easy enough to not have to understand how hard it can be.

I couldn’t edit my post. You are comparing a trade job now to one 20 years ago. It is not the same.

This is terrible. Not fair that one child should be allowed to ruin everyone else's education.

DS has ASD and dyspraxia, I was a SAHM. He has ASD and dyspraxia because neurodiversity runs all through my family. But not everyone has it and many of the older generation were of course not diagnosed. It's there to varying degrees in several relatives - and in others there's no sign at all.

This is going to get worse now that private schools are closing. Until December I was teaching in a secondary indie with a very high level of SEN pupils, so although there was disruption in class, at least class sizes were smaller.
Now that school is struggling financially, those who can afford go to other private schools will, those who can’t will have to move into the state system.

Not from me. Should be permanently excluded. The other children are having their education constantly disrupted.

How is a household income of 40k deprived? Jesus up till recently my household income was less than 20k we certainly weren't "deprived"

Imagine the out of control kid is throwing chairs around the room and terrorising the classroom and the excuse is "oh he's deprived his parents only earn 40k "

When will this batshittery stop?

Because behaviour is communication. Obviously the disruptive children are not having their needs met and the teacher must try harder - that the rest of the class is left to make do without a coherent lesson most of the time doesn't matter.

It's not ridiculous to want a calm school environment for your children. Various governments have used inclusion to cut the special needs budget and the result is situations like the OP's DD's.

Good teachers are produced by good schools that have strict behaviour policies to which they adhere, I think. All teachers need to be supported and difficulties with class control not blamed on the teacher - usually it's the fault of poor behaviour policies, inclusion of children unable to cope in mainstream, and poor back-up.

That is absolutely not what I meant.

A combined income of 40k after a family’s monthly expenditure leaves very little if anything at all.
This puts extra strain on working parents. The CoL has hit everyone, let’s not pretend it hasn’t.

Well yes they may be struggling but "deprived" was a strong word come on my household income was less than 20k until last year. Were me and my kids deprived? No lol and would never of used it as an excuse for children terrorising the classroom.

I meant that even families earning 40k+ can still feel the pinch.

My comment wasn’t based on one factor but a combination. That was just one.

Usually if a child is throwing chairs across a room there is a reason, they don’t pick up a chair with zero feeling and think hmmm I’m going to chuck this.
There can be a variety of different issues here.

Did you receive any government support for example universal credit?

Maybe I quoted the wrong person, I apologise I meant to quote whoever it was that said a kid with parents income of 40k was "deprived" because like that's a strong word. I was broke until very recently im talking sub 20k a year my kids weren't deprived nor were they throwing chairs around rooms and terrorising the classroom.

It just comes across as a very weak excuse

It was me, but the term deprived was too strong. I meant it’s still a struggle.

As already stated there are many teachers who are not up to the job, their English is poor, their subject knowledge is poor and they are completely ineffectual (I walked in on a teacher sitting at their desk while students were running across tables and attempting to climb out of the window. He wasn’t even trying to stop them) There are others hampered by bad behaviour who are clearly trying their best.
Good teachers leave when the behaviour gets too much, rubbish teachers don’t because they don’t care.

Playground, library, empty classroom, hall.

We often do call parents to come. Some do come some don't.

We may want to exclude children but there are problems with doing that.

We can't exclude children if they have SEN and all exclusions are recorded. Too many and the school will be in trouble.

They say no.

They win.

My youngest ds aged 7 is one of the disruptive kids. His older brother is profoundly autistic, non verbal, in a sen school. For years we have known that the 7 year old is also autistic. He is verbal and academically able so school weren't interested in the problems at home, until year 3 happened, and desk based learning began, the kids aged socially and he stayed a 5 year old in mind, and the shit hit the fan. My ds has a good home, we have routines, we spend the time, the effort, the money, we discipline appropriately, we have screen time restrictions. The amount of work, sensory equipment, visuals etc we have is unreal. He just cannot cope in mainstream, he's in sensory overload, we've spent a fortune on various professionals to advise, school are trying their utmost, but he just cannot cope. I don't agree with him disrupting the class, chucking furniture, shouting, etc. Far from it, I lay awake at night stressing about it. We're on a long (3 year) waiting list for diagnosis, we've met so much resistance from school for the EHCP, they're finally starting the EHCNA paperwork only because they can't justify not doing it after suspensions. I don't agree the other kids should be disrupted or frightened, I hate it, and the hate I get from other parents. We are stuck. He cannot go to a special school without a diagnosis and EHCP. Even then there just are two special schools within an hour that can accommodate academically able autistic children, and they are hard fought for and massively oversubscribed. No places for years. If I take him out to educate him at home I will have to leave work, and we would struggle financially, it also absolves school of their responsibilities, and the local authority too, and I don't think I could provide him an effective education. My ds is a sweet gentle boy who is plunged into fight or flight in an unsuitable environment. He shakes before he goes in, he feels sick, he won't eat there, he can't gain weight. He has a partial timetable that aims to just keep him in school, not actually teaching him. He spends a lot of the day with his hands over his ears in a ball on the floor. I hate it, I absolutely hate doing this to him, but if we don't stick it out until that EHCP comes in and we can start the next fight for a special school, then he has no hope of accessing secondary, or any education in general, he is a bright boy who deserves better. So I'm sorry it disrupts other kids, I really am, he doesn't mean it, he doesn't understand the consequences, he's a scared little boy and I am a parent doing my best. The system is fucked.

I think it started before COVID but COVID speeded it up.

There are many reasons

There are more special needs children on mainstream schools and we are not given the support we need to manage them.

Poor parenting.

Influence of the Internet.

Schools are too soft on disruptive behaviour

Yes. I don’t know why people refuse to believe that not all disruptive children are
SEN.

Having an ehcp will not help that child who has no Sen but a disruptive, overwhelming home life. I will make so much progress with the child who refuses to be in a class, has no working memory and is academically behind, has no idea how to handle conflict etc. We will see massive progression in all these areas.

Then the year will end. They will spend six weeks at home. They will return not only back to square one but older and angrier.