To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

Don't most of us have better jobs than our parents? The old piecework and very manual jobs have been mechanised or don't exist at all. I don't think we can compare jobs with jobs in that way by generation - most jobs now need more education than our parents needed so something that was thought of as a 'very good job' (doctor, teacher, engineer, accountant etc) is now just a decent regular job and jobs that were thought of as decent regular jobs (retail, waiter, admin etc) are now thought of as entry level jobs.

The window has shifted on work in the same way the window has shifted on what we think of as having 'the basics' has shifted .

If your disposable income has gone down then you can’t have everything you had before and have to cut your cloth accordingly. It’s a good way of working out what’s really important and essential and discarding the rest.

Possibly but I was just expecting that I might have a better quality of life for having a better job than my parents (my job as a lawyer has existed for many many years, it's not a "new" type of job). But I don't. So I guess I'm going to have to adjust my expectations. As per the title of the thread

This. I'm also a lawyer. My dad worked in clerical admin and my mum was a SAHM. Their quality of life vastly exceeded mine, because not everything cost a bajillion freaking pounds. The fact that my job required a number of years of study and training whereas his didn't even require a degree makes this even more annoying. That's the point.

Do your parents agree that their quality of life was far better or is that your memory/ interpretation ?

I mean for my parents that wouldn't be true at all because although things were cheaper there wasn't so much to get and their jobs weren't that well paid despite both being educated beyond school - they wee retired before they went aboard; money worries they tried to hide but failed

On a lot of pension threads there is talk of how many currently retired people started work younger so started paying tax/NI earlier than many younger (obviously there are exceptions) and here we can talk about how jobs need us to stay in education longer than jobs a generation ago.

Two sides of the same coin.

My quality of life is far, far better than that of my parents and so is DH's.
My kids have a better life than me in some ways, worse in others. But I am helping them quite a bit.

Yes they do believe we have it much harder now.
Of course there is the occasional comment about the 15% interest rates for mortgages but it didn't convince my mum to get a job so I'm not sure it could have been that bad..?

I think everyone has to adjust to our new normal.

I think we DO spend a lot more on ‘stuff’ than we used to - clothes, beauty, toys, gadgets - most of the women I know have new clothes every month, spend £100 on Nike Airs (or whatever expensive trainer is in), buy the same mini trainers for their kids, then moan about CoL.

But equally I feel like you’re making a point about the middle classes out of a bit of spite or something? The working classes also massively overspend - the number of posts I’ve seen on local FB page pleading poverty and needing donations and up pops a photo of a very well presented mum with fake nails, eyelashes and expensive clothes, all the while moaning about how much everything costs and ‘I’m so ashamed to be asking but..’. One of them did a begging post then the next day asked where she can buy a new sofa with a bad credit rating as ‘we’ve decorated the living room and the old one just doesn’t match’.

I think they overspend as they know essentially the government will never leave them and their kids homeless and starving. The ultimate deterrent is gone.

No, they think they were in poverty due to mortgage interest rates, and that younger generations all spend so much on avocado toast and that's why they can't buy houses.

This despite the fact that they bought a (huge, detached) house for £70k (and sold it for £850k), were mortgage-free in their 40s, ran two cars, had foreign holidays, shopped in M&S, had a large family and retired comfortably at 55. All on one income.

I could not conceivably have that lifestyle at their age. I have a much smaller house, will be paying my mortgage until I'm in my 60s, haven't a car, haven't been on holiday since 2018, shop in Aldi, can't afford kids and will be working into my 70s.

So although we disagree the facts speak for themselves as far as I'm concerned.

And no, before anyone starts, I'm not saying every baby boomer is/was wealthy.

You’ve missed out council tax and bills. In a 3 bed semi for a family, that’s likely £500 a month. Then food at £500 a month and everything else you mention would be most of that spare £2000. So no abroad holidays for that family. Also travel into London for lots of areas is more than £400 a month. And nursery fees are probably what’s bringing the standard of living down for young families. Yes it may be temporary but put two Dc through nursery is likely to be 7-8 years of nursery fees so not a short time. At £800+ a month even with the funded hours you can see how big an impact that has on a £70k income family for 8 years.

On a lot of pension threads there is talk of how many currently retired people started work younger so started paying tax/NI earlier than many younger (obviously there are exceptions) and here we can talk about how jobs need us to stay in education longer than jobs a generation ago.

I got NI stamps from age 17, I'm a millennial & worked through uni. I'm
not unusual.
The pension scheme at my work changed whilst I was at uni to be less generous.

I didn't miss out council tax and other bills
. I just know that it's quite possible on under 2k to pay for a lot of fun stuff as well as the basic living costs - sorry if that wasn't clear

Not every family will have 8 years of full on nursery fees - post 2 and once in school the costs are much lower - i saved beforehand for those earliest years. Other people take a career break , or stagger hours with husband to reduce the days in care or rely on friends and family

Hum thinking in it - I don't know anyone who ever did full time nursery - wonder how common that is ?

But that doesn't change the fact that CoL have risen for everyone.

Endless threads on here about it.
Yep we know!

Why do people lack Resilience?
There have been periods of growth and boom, followed by depression/crisis/ war for centuries and people managed.
They cracked on but now it's why me, something has to be done!

We probably do need to reduce our expectations based on jobs and income. But that's grim af.

There have been periods of growth and boom, followed by depression/crisis/ war for centuries and people managed.
They cracked on but now it's why me, something has to be done!

😆😆 we've not had growth since the 08 bust, that's the point...

I don’t know anyone of that age that has that stuff. My parents are poor. My aunts are poor. Get that chip off your shoulder

@keyboardtypo same - I’m also a millennial and have been working since I was 14 (started off with things like paper round deliveries, then waitressing. Part time at first admittedly)

Exactly times have always been changing thank god we're not living in the black death times. Or world war one. How would these people cope?

I've noticed on most of these threads it's the people who had really quite wealthy childhood's (compared to 90% of the population) Ie foreign holidays in the 80s, big houses, pony lessons someone even mentioned boarding school on another thread that are moaning and bitching that they aren't as rich as their parents were. Bitching about old people "hoarding their wealth" as if all old people are as well off as their parents.

They always try and downplay/humble it describing their childhood as "middle class" but I agree with that poster that pointed out that most of what gets described on here isn't middle anything it's upper.

Yes I know!

Ha yes I graduated into that nonsense. No graduate jobs etc. Since then it's been a total shitstorm of Brexit, the pandemic etc. As I approach 40, the once full well of resilience is running somewhat dry

@YesImawitch but thats the unusual bit because as you said before we had cycles... maybe it explains why people aren't just *cracking on".

Agree
We were solidly middle class DF a teacher DM a TA and we had holidays in Devon with a warm egg sarnie on the beach why egg
A packet of melted penguins and warm squash.
It was bloody marvellous!

The issue is despite the 2008 crash the Tories printed and chucked money into the economy, kicked the disaster can down the road and now that can has well and truly landed with Brexit and Covid chucked in.
No-one could have predicted those two disasters.

Time to stop moaning and get on with it!

@neverwakeasleepingbaby it baffles me that people talk about boom & bust & cycles without acknowledging that we never recovered from the last bust. The can was kicked down the road & unfortunately we now can see the end of the road

Time to stop moaning and get on with it!

But the ramifications are still with us?