To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

And we all know how successful the NHS is atm! We only cared enough to setup the NHS less than a century ago. Says a lot about the human race.

Nonetheless it's not survival of the fittest is it?

You say that like I'm old lol I'm early twenties probably younger than most of you.

Its just me observation most on here could actually have kids they just don't believe in kids sharing rooms or doing a ton of "extracurriculars" like they did themselves as children. Some even say they don't want kids unless they can afford private school because they themselves went so their kids should too.
Just because your parents were wealthy why does automatically mean you should be? Empires rise and fall. So does your family lineage.

My comments aren't even aimed at people who don't have kids because they can't afford even a small mortgage or rent, I'm talking about the people who expect a big house, two cars , holidays etc which there are enough people who expect all that on here and catastrophize when they can't have it.

My comments aren't even aimed at people who don't have kids because they can't afford even a small mortgage or rent, I'm talking about the people who expect a big house, two cars , holidays etc which there are enough people who expect all that on here and catastrophize when they can't have it.

But ignoring this very narrow sector (which I haven't seen much of) there is still a wider issue about younger people feeling like the social contract is broken. I'm not young but don't exist in a vacuum so I find it concerning.

No I don’t disagree with pension credit and I think everyone should get any medical help they can to make their lives better.
I do think that people should realise that because so many are going to university these days it is no longer a guarantee of a comfortable middle class lifestyle. The country is awash with educated fools.
I would like to see more division of wealth. The concept of billionaires is obscene imo.
However, people really do have to take responsibility for some of the crappy decisions they make along the way. Children in short term relationships is a huge problem in my opinion as it really does take two parents to raise children financially. Your own flat as soon as you reach adulthood instead of staying at home or renting a room in a house share. Going off travelling? Buying the latest of everything ? New cars every three years on finance. People don’t have realistic expectations of what an average person can achieve today. There are simply too many people and more arriving every day for the UK to offer anything more than a mediocre existence.

So as I said it's not survival of the fittest, funny that!

There are simply too many people and more arriving every day for the UK to offer anything more than a mediocre existence.

So you want to cull older people or change the economic model?

The problem we have is the changing demographics not people wanting a new car every few yrs. In the 60s we had 1 pensioner to 5 workers, now it's 3:1 & not far off 2:1. We already have more over 65s than under 15s. We are actually screwed.

Of course it is survival of the fittest. People can talk the talk but the wealthiest live very different lives from the rest of us. Private education , private healthcare means survival of the fittest is still very much evident in any society.
We have two children as we know we can financially support two children without any direct financial help from the government.
I chose an intelligent man to father those children which is half the battle imo.
Those at the top love it when the poor have big families, they need them to be workers for them. Look at what happened to the big country houses after WW1.
The simple fact is that we have too many people for the resources available. I really do envisage some kind of population control coming into existence in the next hundred years or so. There are a lot of really really stupid people around. And those stupid people are supported to keep having stupid children who are ruining our education system because they have no reason to behave. And so the cycle continues. There’s an excellent chapter in Freakonomics about the link between decreasing crime in New York and the legalisation of abortion. It’s a fascinating read.

I want there to be less people born in the first place.

If it’s a London commuter town you need to factor in the travel surely?

I want there to be less people born in the first place.

How does a society work if it's mainly older people?

Of course it is survival of the fittest

There are a lot of really really stupid people around. And those stupid people are supported to keep having stupid children who are ruining our education system because they have no reason to behave

So how come all these really really stupid people are surviving to carry on their stupid genes? Wouldn't they die out if it truly was survival of the fittest.

👏

I disagree with those who don’t work or who are not able to work being supported to keep having more and more children.
Of course the rich need those children to become workers as oversupply means they only have to pay peanuts. Why are people already living in poverty happy to keep having children to work for the rich? If you don’t have anything now why would you add a few children into the mix. It’s stupidity! Nothing less.
I would offer financial incentives for sterilisation to those with really low IQs. Those who have multiple children taken off them would be sterilised after the second child went into care. The number of looked after children in special schools is frightening. It would be better for them not to be born in the first place.
You should have to contribute to taxes for a set number of years before you can take out and then you can only take out for a limited amount of time.

Jesus Christ you're proposing eugenics

I suspect it's probably the Roman Republic you think about - the Empire only started in 27BC with Augustus and collapsed about 400 years later.

(I'll go sit in Pedants corner now)

Most are surviving now because either they live off benefits or they work for the rich in jobs which pay peanuts. They’re existing! It’s not a life I would want for my children but many seem happy enough.
The fittest are those at the top! Doesn’t mean the others aren’t still alive. Just that they don’t have a great quality of life. Work to live, hand to mouth existence..

Eugenics isn’t all bad. What’s wrong with stopping really useless people procreating? Why is that a bad thing?

You haven't seen much of in real life or on Mumsnet? Fair enough if the former I don't see many of them either seeing as the majority of people didn't have pony lessons and private school growing up. But here on Mumsnet it's what these threads are made up of people bitching that they had pampered childhoods and feel hard done by that they can't give their kids the same.
You may not be young but I'm younger than most on here and I don't expect society to always improve. Empires rise and fall as do family lineages, the people who expect to be wealthy (they can call themselves middle all they want but they all describe wealthy childhood's) just because their parents were are extremely entitled

I disagree with those who don’t work or who are not able to work being supported to keep having more and more children.

Who is having more & more children? what is your evidence for this?

Why are people already living in poverty happy to keep having children to work for the rich? I

The vast majority of us work for the rich in some form or another. It's why we are getting poorer.

You should have to contribute to taxes for a set number of years before you can take out and then you can only take out for a limited amount of time.

But you said you believed in pension credits upthread?

I would offer financial incentives for sterilisation to those with really low IQs. Those who have multiple children taken off them would be sterilised after the second child went into care. The number of looked after children in special schools is frightening. It would be better for them not to be born in the first place.

Wow

If you hand anyone that power, then someone else will argue it’s OK for them to have it - “what’s wrong with stopping X group procreating”?

You might think your justification makes it worth doing, but so do they.

Nobody should have the power to forcibly sterilise people. Not for any reason.

I mean it reads very badly but we have to weigh up the practicalities.

There are families who live near me who have 4 or 5 children each all with high level SEN who are on benefits, and every time a baby is born they end up not meeting milestones, needing loads of appointments and testing, DLA and then ultimately special school. Each child on this path must cost millions and will need lifelong financial support and care - yet they continue to have them.

It’s a really tricky one; I hate the thought of sterilisation incentives etc but we’re slowly morphing into a country that exists as a support system for people with various needs.

Most are surviving now because either they live off benefits or they work for the rich in jobs which pay peanuts.

But if it was survival of the fittest there wouldn't be benefits or free healthcare so as I said it's not survival of the fittest.

The fittest are those at the top!

But the others are still reproducing so not survival of the fittest as I said.

Nobody should have the power to forcibly sterilise people. Not for any reason.

And who decides who is stupid?

@Scrubberdubber I have never seen a thread on MNs where people expect to have a pony & go to boarding school because their dad who was a milkman did it for them. I do see people annoyed about the fact they can't get on the housing ladder or have dc.

You may not be young but I'm younger than most on here and I don't expect society to always improve.

Why do you not expect society to improve & progress though?

What’s wrong with stopping really useless people procreating?

What about those with a genetic predisposition to disease or illness?

Who got these wage increases?!