To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

Within M25

I love Canterbury. Lovely city!

Yep!

This is mainly down to housing costs. I live in the SW on a joint income of about £70k and we are comfortable. I've lived all over the country and fuel, food, eating out, clothing and travel cost similar amounts (in fact our council tax and public transport are some of the highest in the country) but the difference is that our mortgage on a 4 bed terrace is under £1k. If you whack another £1200 on that for a 4 bed detached half an hour closer to London then we could no longer save anything for emergencies and would have to choose between that and treats/days out.

I don't think the "executive" new build homes popping up everywhere are aimed at families with the same budget they used to be and some will never move out of their starter homes which means less to go around for first time buyers.

Im looking forward to visiting!

She went to uni there and loved it, after a horrible time in Cambridge!

I think we have different definitions of middle class 😂

Wrong post quoted, I meant the house with pictures. Not how I define middle class.

We never had all this stuff growing up in the 80s and my parents were wealthy. I think people's expectations have grown massively due to false images on social media.

Nonsense. Holidays abroad, nice cars, eating out were just as common in the 80s. We didn't do much of it because we were not at all well off, but most of the kids in my class had holidays abroad and much nicer cars than we did. I didn't need social media to know I was missing out, but even living quite poorly, we still had take-away. The price of those has shot up considerably and they are now something many can't afford.

The whole point is generations were always doing better than the last, except, this generation of young people are the first that won't. Miserable to assume we should be glad our kids will go back to more austere times and anything else is too high an expectation.

you start then @EuclidianGeometryFan
other people do what they want

Childcare is such a short time. Once done, you have the funds to do other things. We bring in £110k combined salary (before tax etc) and have a 4 bed detached house (south west - moved from south east as we knew we couldn’t afford the lifestyle we wanted), 3 dc (including twins so you need double of everything), 2 dogs, 2 cars, holiday abroad every year, dc go on school trips like dd1 going to Italy at Easter and dtds will go skiing with school next winter. Occasional meals out but not often, rarely get a takeaway, coffee out quite often (work has a cafe and the coffee is so good).

we’re saving up at the moment for a replacement little car (2nd car) so it’ll be a newer small thing and putting money aside for 3 dc in uni (that part scares me but like nursery, it’s a set amount of time).

I worry about how we are bringing up our kids though. We earn high wages and have climbed the housing ladder successfully over a long time. Realistically there is no way our kids (20, 17, 14) will end up living in a house like ours (well not until they inherit from us anyway!). What are we doing to their expectations? Will they feel like they’ve failed, when if they have the careers we have had and that only equates to a much smaller house.

Absolutely! We had some amazing cars swapped every 3 years in the 1980s and 1990s - because my dad got a company car as middle management. Holidays abroad twice a year because package holidays meant I could go free (only child) and there were no fines for going in termtime. We had weekly fish and chip Friday and had a lovely detached house on a household income of £35k. I'd say the only thing more easily available to average families now is clothing as we didn't have supermarkets and Primark.

I grew up there and spent my weekends shopping there, visiting my nanna and going to the Marlowe theatre. Never get bored of visiting the ducking stool. Dh went to the uni there too.

There’s a big difference between 70k and 100k though. I’d expect to be able to do all that on a joint income of £100k. We earn a bit above that and can comfortably do all of that plus a bit more. On £70k though I wouldn’t expect to be able to do that’s £70k joint income in the south is not a middle class income really anymore, it’s two fairly average but not high incomes.

Agree. Two average incomes would be about 80k, not two 'good' incomes.

Two good incomes would be a minimum of 100k

Hopefully you’re bringing them up to know that success looks like different things to different people and isn’t directly correlated to house size. Yes, money went further in the past but there is more to life than a 4 bed detached and a Range Rover.

Very basic careers!! I don't know these lucky older people, who did bugger all but got fab pensions for it! All the older people I know, either worked very hard, but now rely on state pension, having worked fulltime from age16 (some even younger), or have a work pension, after doing very difficult jobs for many years, and really can't be begrudged them! They did not have remotely privileged early lives, and have worked hard for what they have now, and to give their children a better early life than they had.

Agree - maybe if your definition of commuter belt is in the depths of Kent - but you’ll pay a ton in travel costs, and limited to working practically where the train stops off in Victoria for eg or you’d never get back to pick up kids from childcare as door to to door much more than an hour.

I had a middle class upbringing in the Home Counties. Mother was a teacher, Father was an MD, so not at all basic. He ran a specialist subsidiary of a multi-national conglomerate and was well known and respected in The City. We didn't do any of the things you mentioned. No coffees, takeaways or eating out. My parents lived frugally which is why they could afford to "live it up" when they both finally retired.

I agree, partly due to COL and partly because rampant consumerism has lead to a massive rise in expectations. Middle class people expect to have expensive hobbies, regularly re-decorated houses, up to date tech, foreign holidays etc. When I was a child only my most well-off friends lived like this.

On Rightmove there are 18 three bed houses in Hemel for 350k. It is 30 minutes into London from hemel. People are snobby about ex council houses and would rather have a massive mortgage to keep up with the Jones's on the 'right' streets, than live within their means.

Hatfield, Luton and Stevenage all have short journey times into london and there are plenty of 350k houses with three bedrooms. It's easier to blame COL than look at your priorities though. Not aimed at you OP, just a general observation of the materialistic, competitive nature of English home owners.

This does depend on region.
UK full-time annual salary by region 2024 | Statista

Average salary in SE is £39k, so £70k joint income is below average.
In London average joint income is £95k.
So if you're there, you aren't middle class income wise and shouldn't expect mc lifestyle.

It's a 3 bed semi. Which was what was spoken about. And someone saying " in your dreams" that's it's possible to buy one in the south east under £350k.

I agree, partly due to COL and partly because rampant consumerism has lead to a massive rise in expectations. Middle class people expect to have expensive hobbies, regularly re-decorated houses, up to date tech, foreign holidays etc.

Msny people aren't managing because they/are paying off debt for stuff they couldn't afford in the first place
Quantitive easing by the Tories meant that money was printed, circulated into the economy and interest rates were cheap.
It was an illusion of wealth.