To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

I'm talking about the delusional these people have that their childhood was "middle" anything, jetting to foreign countries multiple times a year and a big four bedroom house, two nice cars etc was always more upper than middle.
Even back in the day only a very small minority of people lived like that. You can't expect to live the high life as an adult just because you did as a child.

Look I pay twice as much on the mortgage of my house then my mother did on the rent of her house ten years ago (yes twice as much and her house was bigger than mine) so I get what you're saying.

Still it would be good if we could get to a place where people felt things were getting better not worse but with the broken housing market funded by inherited wealth that won't happen

But it flows down. If those who had exceptionally well off childhoods, can't replicate them despite doing similar or better jobs with two earners. Then every level is adjusting thier expectations too. This isn't a great thing. Just the whole country adjusting to a worse standard of living basically due to housing costs.

Exactly.

We got "better" jobs than our parents - still can't afford to live where I grew up and moved somewhere much cheaper - and made huge compromises.

In ten years we've been here house is now apparently worth 100K more - we couldn't afford to buy here now. This area has a much higher fertility rate than surrounding areas - still well below replacement level - but as house prices and rent go up and they are - where does than leave generations below us- are there any cheaper areas left to be in.

Our parents were mortage and childfree and much younger ages - they had decades before retirement to save for it and IL to travel the world in 40 and 50s. We started later and won't have as long and more likely our kids will boomerang back as they struggle to afford to leave. As more can't mangae to buy that's going to be more paying rent from pensions.

You'd think decline birth rates will mean population decline and possible cheaper housing at some point - but with immigration we'll still have a growing population for next decade and haven't been building enough homes for decades now.

no wonder young people want to leave the UK & birth rates are so low

It's the part about having comparatively "better" jobs for a worse standard of living in comparison to parents that some people can't seem to understand on here.

Yes you might know a pensioner down the road who is struggling, or a young person who is very wealthy. But when you compare my life with my parents' life, my job is "better" and pays more, but I live in a smaller house in a cheaper area, have much less free time because I work and my mum didn't.

Yes maybe I should adjust my expectations but it's not what I was expecting when I was working hard to establish a career instead of going travelling or whatever. It's disappointing, that's all.

Fucking hell that didn't take long did it? We are retired and between us we get just under £200 a month from work pensions and then state pension. We are in no way living it up as you put it, I went abroad when I was 15 to see relatives, dh has never been.
I spent years doing 5 part time jobs to accommodate my family and keep a roof over our heads. And you want to begrudge me the little bit I do have. I am dreading when one of us dies because the only expense that will reduce will be food. The remaining person will have to get rid of the car so that's independance gone.

Attitudes like yours make me so angry. Why did any of us try to save for our retirement if we are just going to get shit on by people like you?

@lazyarse123 wage stagnation is a thing as is house prices vs salaries, it's not a personal dig at you..,

Not sure on the middle / upper middle thing.

Think possibly it should be upper working class and middle class, instead?

Anyway, my own situation.

Parents were aspirational working class. Both studied at night school for qualifications.

Dad had a good and interesting career which involved him working away a fair bit.

Mum worked as a TA in a school for a) the holidays, as we didn't have family who could help and b) it was a private school and she got half price fees for my younger brother and I.

They bought "the worst house" on the best street in order to live in a nice area and they spent years renovating. It was very cold and damp for many years.

We did go on a lot of holidays although maybe not multiple a year. We went to France and Spain and the canaries a lot, also multiple trips to Florida and Canada.

2 cars.

As I say, private schooling due to reduced fees.

We never ate out, that wasn't really a thing. Also, no takeaways.

I didn't have nice clothes, I wore my cousins hand me downs mostly. With the rise of Primark, I began to get my own, new clothes, but in the teenage years I never had anything cool or branded until I had a job and could buy it myself.

If I wanted to do an extra curricular, they would pay for that. They paid for driving lessons etc.

Mum and dad's clothes are all Primark and supermarket. They count the pennies when buying anything (food shopping etc). They still enjoy holidays, but always budget accommodation etc.

Their house is now warm and comfortable and worth around £600k.

Me, I've felt the pressure to provide similar (or better) for my kids. Particularly due to the private schooling.

I floundered a bit after uni, and jumped from job to job a bit. It was stressful. Happy in my professional job now and I have bought a house in the town next to my parents. Very similar house but a bit bigger. But needs a lot of work. They bought their house at age 27. I bought mine 3 years ago at age 40. So I have a much higher mortgage than they will ever have had. I also will never be able to afford private school.

We do have lots of holidays but they are all cheap and cheerful. We couldn't afford Canada or America.

We eat out loads more than they ever did...but I think that's just a generational thing.

However, in my case, in the 80s/90s, private school, holidays to Canada and America as well as Europe, detached 4 bed house, some people on here would be thinking upper middle class
But definitely not.

Because class is about more than money. My parents were very much working class who did very well for themselves. But my upbringing was not upper middle class, despite the school etc. school
Was only from age 13 for me. So I didn't learn an instrument or anything. My state primary school didn't offer anything like that. The lifestyles of my school peers were wildly different from mine.

As for my kids....I think they are probably growing up more middle class than I did. But I'm not sure, hard to tell, isn't it?

(Caveat to say I don't actually care what class they are growing up. Just want them to be happy and have opportunities. Just musing on the class thing.)

Stats may be true but not everyone gets 6% rises. A lot of the average rise is influenced by overpaid finance jobs. Would a cleaner in Wakefield get 6%? Probably not. Anyone in that lowest third of wages is probably worse off than before COVID. No doubt others are as well.

I understand what you're saying. But it's always trotted out as if we don't deserve a nice lifestyle after working for 50 years. I feel terribly sad for my children that they probably won't ever have a house instead of a flat, which fortunately two of them bought on their own thanks to one wfh during covid and saving all her transport costs and the other never spending a penny. They know it's unlikely they will get a state pension if they live long enough.
It does feel personal. But begrudgingly us will not make your lives any better. You could just feel the contempt from that 1st poster.

I agree OP it’s sad. We have a decent combined income of £100k ish and yet money is tight!!
FWIW the balance is very different now of people working and on benefits. I was in the dentist for hours yesterday- waiting room for 2+ hours, and the waiting room is tiny. I was the only patient of about 15+ people attending who paid for my care- all the rest were on some benefits so didn’t pay. How on earth is that sustainable? I get it- dental care is £££ and I hate paying it but if the majority are on benefits how can things work!

@lazyarse123 but the comment didn't say anything about deserving or not? We should be able to acknowledge something even if it's uncomfortable.

But it's always trotted out as if we don't deserve a nice lifestyle after working for 50 years

Who you? or everyone? not everyone does work hard regardless of age.

& the point is fewer of the younger generations will get the nice lifestyle after working for 50 years

& the point is fewer of the younger generations will get the nice lifestyle after working for 50 years
Does that mean we shouldn't have it either?

why have you inferred that from what I said?

Ideally everyone would be able to have a decent lifestyle after a life of hard work

Whilst things are very bad at the moment I would hope / expect that things will improve

Like the time in the 1979 when mortgage rates hit 17%- that led to a few very hard years for many families - but if MN had been around then you would have seen many people feel similarly to today

Or the early 1990s when so many homes were repossessed - again if MN had existed you would see that people felt very negative then also about the future

There are bad times but we need to work out how to make sure that things don't continue in that way for the next 40 years , so that todays young people can also expect a better life ahead

Fighting amongst each other , being jealous or other rather than focussing on the real problems - housing costs I would say - won't get us moving forward

Housing costs - we need a building program of social housing like in the 1950s and 1960/

Ie it will take decades to fix but it can be done

The issue is now is an ageing population so things will just get more expensive.

I agree, OP, I think we need to adjust our expectations and focus on the things we can afford rather than the things we can't. E.g. I have a prestigious middle-class job but I need to be very careful with heating, bring a packed lunch everyday and shop in Aldi. On the other hand, I am able to afford expensive music lessons for my DS. It's better for my wellbeing to focus on how lucky I am to be able to support DS than to feel aggrieved that I have to put a dressing gown on when I get home to keep warm.

But that’s the point isn’t it multiple jobs are professional but provide exactly that range of income. Eg nurse/ nhs salary £36,500 ish (top of the band) so 5+ years qualified, the next band is usually for a team lead type role, after that they would be moving into management which takes them away from clinical and obviously less and less opportunities as it’s a smaller pool of management needed, teachers salaries are similar/ police/ basically most ‘professional’ front line services.

I’m 15 years into my professional career and my earning potential has peeked - other than the usual % uplift per year there’s no scope for me to progress unless I want to move away from the job I trained for and sit in an office, lots of red tape and effectively would work out an extra £150 take home for the pleasure as it would put me into the next pension bracket and tax bracket (no scope to change the pension bracket other than opting out completely)

I do feel I should be able to afford a reasonable standard of life yes- that was the whole point of having a career, so we could have some of the extras like holidays, treats, a meal out or a takeaway, without panicking about sacrificing something else or penny pinching. in the least derogatory way possible if I wanted to spend my life doing that I could of got a much less pressured job that didn’t require qualifications/ uni and had top ups where required.

It’s abit sh*t when the middle band of earners end up living like that anyway and there’s no wonder people are fed up.

I live in a flat, albeit a nice one, in London at 53. I rented for years. But apparently this is not good enough for Gen Z?
So I am
Funding education entirely.
Allowing my DC to live with me rent-free for as long as they wish to, until they are 40 if need be.
Taking them on holiday with me wherever I go, if they want to come ( they don't).
Childcare: I will provide as much as I can, though I expect to still be working, but maybe once every ten days and in all emergencies?

Would this suffice? Or should I continue to flagellate myself?

The things is that a couple on 70k should be able to afford a holiday and many nice things but they wouldn't be able to afford every nice thing. If they can't it's money management that more the issue

Nursery costs are not being included here because that's a short term thing that not every parent has to have

2 people on 36k each - total take home 4800 a month ( assuming student loans and pensions deducted )

2000 for a reasonable 3 bed semi - a 350-400k house so area dependent as to how nice that is - in many places that's a 4 bed detached

800 a month for travel assumes both commute every day into London

Leaves 2000 left for everything else
Having checked my spreadsheets -
That's plenty for food, insurance , clothes , house maintenance, a night or two out every week and a few holidays

Yes it's a tighter if you have 2 sets or nursery fees to pay but that's temporary and often people get something towards that

I think a lot of people look back and think their parents generation "had it easy"My parents moved from London in the 70s .Houses there have always been expensive .Mum worked PT, and my Stepdad did lots of overtime too.They rented their TV and we didnt go abroad bar once to Italy . COL high then as well.With DC things are always going to be a bit tight

My parents & in-laws didn't have it easy but had it easier. Both bought London family homes on one professional salary; similar for most of my neighbours & school friends. Had more than 2dc & retired in early 60s. You need to be a very high earner to buy those homes now.

A major issue now is having to save up a big deposit whilst paying high rents

Your point resonates hugely. Work hard at school and you too will have it all – said every Careers Advisor.

Erm, ok.