To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

That would be fine if we didn’t see our parents generation living it up on final salary pensions from very basic careers, multiple foreign holidays a year, knowing your pension pot is pitiful in comparison…

I agree. In the mid-nineties as a single woman I bought a lovely flat in a very aspirational building. All the flats were also owned by single people in their early twenties. I know someone who lives in the building and the flats are now owned by middle-aged couples because they are not affordable to younger single people. The idea of what sort of property you can buy at what age has, or should have changed to reflect reality. It's the same with the other items you list. I had a middle class 1970s upbringing which didn't involve foreign holidays because that was the norm back then. Unfortunately I think we have to roll back expectations. I'm not saying this right, it's just reality.

I’m not sure, I guess it depends what you’re expecting when you say a professional lifestyle. Take home pay on one £50k and one £30k salary would be about 5k a month. You can get a 3 bed semi near me (south east, London commuter belt) for £350k, so say a £250k mortgage would be around £1250. Council tax £250, car payment £250, other bills £500, childcare £500 (two afterschool places @ 10/day each), child activities £250. Call it £3k all in. So that would leave £2k a month or £24k/ year for food, coffee, holidays, days out ect. That would seem enough for a pretty middle class lifestyle to me?

@EuclidianGeometryFan there's no doubt living standards for all groups are falling, costs have risen faster than wages so in general, we are all able to buy less across all incomes.

As for what that affords for specific individuals - that's down to their priorities.

3 bed in SE for £350k? Really?

Hmm, that was definitely true in 2022\2023, but it’s pretty much washed through now - see https://www.statista.com/statistics/1272447/uk-wage-growth-vs-inflation/ . Wage rises in 2024 were 6% against inflation of around 3%.

Yes, it comes down to priorities.
So perhaps you will have to choose between getting a dog or keeping the TV subscriptions, or choosing between a detached house (vs terrace) and the holidays, etc.
But you can no longer expect to have all the 'social markers' of the middle class life - just some of them.

In their dreams 🙄🙄🙄🙄🤷‍♀️

Yes, perhaps expectations have to roll back to what was normal in the 80s or 70s.

I just went on right move for Hythe and Folkestone in Kent (where I grew up) and there’s lots of 3 bed houses for under £350k.

It's not just about inflation though, you have to factor in the tax rises and fiscal drag/benefit steps - I think so @EuclidianGeometryFan yes, the whole basket is not affordable.

The period of what, 1990-2008 was probably a golden age and since the 2008 financial crisis governments and households have increasingly been struggling, with Brexit and Covid kicking things down further.

What is COL please?

Or just on Rightmove in Kent 🙄🤷🏻‍♀️

Firstly, you're presuming people have a £100k deposit. Secondly, I am also SE commuter belt and house prices round here are about double that, as are rents about double what you've quoted for the mortgage cost.
Nursery costs are also crippling despite so called free hours.

More often than not, a single pension as a lot of women didn't work full time and gave up after they had kids. 60s, 70s and 80s I'm talking about.

Cost Of Living, i.e. the cost of living crisis in recent years with massive price rises in just about everything.

See the early 90s were really tough where I lived with lots of redundancies. I was 13 when my dad was made redundant and dm worked part time earning “treat money” so we nearly lost our house. Dh has just been under consultation and at risk and although it was stressful, I work ft on a similar wage and we haven’t stretched ourselves so we’d have been able to stay in the house we’re in whatever happened. 2001-2008 were great years to buy a house and set many people up to jump up the property ladder.

well surely this is just personal to you rather than a nationwide change?
stop comparing your lifestyle

@TeenLifeMum that's a good point, we lost our house too - maybe my time frame is wrong, that early 90s recession was brutal.

I think if you can't afford most of those things on 80 to 100k household combined salaries ( with the exception of nursery years if you have no family help ) you are probably doing something wrong or being wasteful in some way

Who would slog their guts out in 2 full time professional jobs if it doesn't pay?

This is where the government will run into a problem. If work doesn't pay then people stop working. Already people on higher salaries are cutting hours to avoid the taxes cliff edges.

I wouldn't say that being able to afford basics like mortgage, childcare, a coffee, and a takeaway every so often counts as 'middle class'

Yup, my daughter's just bought a 3 bed house in Canterbury, 5 minutes walk from the city centre, for 150k. It's falling down but is in a very desirable area. She has a huge garden too.

Her mortgage is half what her rent was in her 2 bed flat!

We never had all this stuff growing up in the 80s and my parents were wealthy. I think people's expectations have grown massively due to false images on social media.

Doesn't seem much below £500k according to Land Registry data?

landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi/browse?from=2017-04-01&location=http%3A%2F%2Flandregistry.data.gov.uk%2Fid%2Fregion%2Fbromley&to=2024-05-01&lang=en

I think every generation has tough parts and it’s unhelpful to create comparisons. My parents lost a chunk of private pensions when Labour taxed them, they had to suddenly fund 2 teens at uni (brother’s year was the first for fees with very little notice and as my parents only had a mortgage and no loans, the loan concept was terrifying). They do live fine on their pension and mortgage free house, but it’s not been an easy ride. Dh redundant 3 times, negative equity in 1980 when dh was first redundant with a 2 month old baby and wife not working. Had to rebuild time after time. Each time dh managed to come back stronger and didn’t let it tear him down. BUT they always lived within their means. No credit ever.

It is sad when people think 'I am earning loads, why should I still be struggling like this?' when they don't realise that the game has changed.

Two 'good' wages are no longer enough for the whole package of two kids, dog, mortgage, childcare, car, modest holiday, TV subs, and a little social spending.

The only way not to feel like you're struggling is to adjust expectations of what should be 'normal' for a certain income.

The trouble is that when such a 'middle-class' couple see people on Universal Credit with two kids, a dog, car, TV subs, etc. it is only natural they wonder what is going wrong with the country.
It is often not obvious how much debt people are in, maybe the car is on credit and the UC couple never go on holiday, etc.
Plus they will never own their own house - that is the huge difference.