To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

Yes. My adult kids are on target to have way better pension provision than me who will get state pension with three tiny old work pensions. Most of my jobs didn't have workplace pensions until sometime around 2018 ish. My first property also lost a third of it's value with negative equity in the 90s. Just stop with this nonsense.

I grew up middle class (until we fell from grace, but that’s another story) and we had exactly the type of house that PPs are turning their noses up at.

My middle class grandparents also had that kind of house. The working class grandparents had had a mid terrace with two bedrooms for many many kids.

The only ‘middle class’ people I knew who had a 4 bed detached with two cars and fancy holidays went to jail for fraud eventually…

People now expect to be able to have everything the second they move out of their parents home. But life doesn’t work like that. Expectations need a significant readjustment.

Well, we have a nice house in a nice area with decent salaries and I do think WTF?
Every time I buy something now, I'm thinking about what billionaire pockets I am about to line.
15 year old George Forman grill with a wonky hinge, still works?
You can bet I still use it, but had been considering replacing it until I thought about the profits retailers make.
Eating out now is shit and bad value, I can see more and more corners being cut, decrease in quantity and quality of food.
Our holidays are definitely less fancy. No more two weeks in South East Asia with the kids.
It's shit, but it's shit for most people.

The literal thread title is about the fact people are having to adjust their expectations due to COL issue.

Thats the point - you don’t get as much for your money as before, and affording the ‘middle class’ lifestyle of old is increasingly difficult.

But no one seems willing to adjust their expectations. They'd rather blame COL, Boomers, Brexit. Literally anything other than how they failed to adjust their expectations and 'need' for the pretty house in the leafy street. My point is that most people could have a slightly better standard of living IF they make different choices and priorities. Some people won't be able to do that of course, those on disability benefits etc but most of us can make changes to our budgeting. We just don't seem to want to.

it is only bricks and mortar

so said the bank manager when we were thinking of buying.
we never did
it is just monopoly

Back in the 1990s no one was paying for broadband or mobiles, car ownership was lower, home ownership was lower, TV subscriptions were only really for sports fans and people ate out less & travelled less. When was this golden time of plenty?

Complaining about modern life is hardly original -

https://diseasesofmodernlife.web.ox.ac.uk/article/stressed-out-so-were-the-victorians.

that is laughable to me that you are saying no more holidays in south east asia with the kids.
why would you say that? do you have family there? or you think the kids would appreciate a holiday in south east asia?
wait until they have flown the nest and go to south east asia,
take them camping!

But are they really? I’m one of the lucky boomers who have funded driving lessons, first cars, uni living expenses, deposits for rental properties, deposits for first homes, free childcare etc. None of these were provided to DH and I.
We are not well off only ever earned average salaries, nor are we unusual, all of our friends are doing the same.

Come on now
It's not only the COL
People cannot now get the cheap credit/ remortgage at 1.2% to fund the expensive house, Range Rover, nails, hair, trips ghey did before.
Those of us alive in the 80s know that it was a very different standard of living.
Look at Vinted-people are selling all the stuff they bought because really they couldn't afford it
The bubble has burst.

I agree in some ways but not all.

There is so much more to spend your money on nowadays - when I was a kid there were no soft plays, a trip to the fair would have been a massive treat and I don't think I stepped foot inside a cafe until I was at uni.

Expectations are definitely higher.

I grew up in a working class household, we rarely ate out. Going to a Harvester was a huge treat, maybe once a year if that. I never did any clubs except Brownies. Books came from the library. Holidays were in a caravan on the coast. Abroad a couple of times when grandparents paid.

On the other hand, wages have not kept pace at all. My parents were a secretary and a carpet fitter the house I grew up in (3 bed 1930's semi) is now over £500k. I doubt they would have had a combined salary of over £100k nowadays (it was about £40k when they retired 15-ish yrs ago). They don't have massive pensions but they do ok and manage 3 x two week holidays in Europe and several UK trips per year.

I work in the civil service, grade 7. In times gone by this was the grade that MPs had their salary aligned to. MPs are now paid over £90k per year- I earn a third less.
In the 1990's a grade 7 salary would have been enough for a family of 4 in London.

This.

£100k is 3 times the average household income.

The violin is so tiny I can't find it

@Willyoujustbequiet the average household income can't be £33k?

Two adults earning national minimum wage would above that, surely?

We earn about that and couldn't afford it all. Have 2 cars rather than 1 (which we could cut down on I think but DH disagrees) but both old cars. Have Netflix and apple TV but not any other TV stuff. Can eat out maybe once a month and save £500/month for holidays (which usually goes on camping in the UK and an abroad trip not in the summer holidays). I would have expected to be able to do a bit more in terms of eating out or days out

I agree - I think the average income is £33k and so assuming two adults in a family it would be around £66k household income.

More like 2 bed if lucky.

The average household isn't necessarily 2 full time workers though. All those single people, part time workers, pensioners, people who are unemployed.

I don't actually know what's an average household now.

I took it from the most recent ONS figures I could find.

There are a lot of single person households and people who can't work for whatever reason.

Salaries definitely do not go as far. Houses on the street I grew up in during the 80s sell for £800k+ now... My parents bought ours at 25 years old in the late 70s. They were both junior civil servants and had no parental help. There is no way a couple in a similar situation could afford a house on that road now at that age.

On two civil service salaries they paid for private school for us, foreign holidays every year... All this in the SE.

Wow, this is interesting. But is it mean or median? (The link is not working for me).
If mean, that will imply a lot of people on much less and a few on a lot more. If median then it is surprising that it is so high now.

Even outside the southeast that shift is there. . My parents live in a 3 bed terrace in a nice suburb of Liverpool. No garden (just a small yard) or parking.
They paid 30k for their house in the 80s. They were council admin officers (mum part time). When I was growing up our neighbours were posties, factory workers, other office clerks.
They are downsizing and have just accepted an offer of 270k. Their neighbours now are headteachers, solicitors and other professionals.
Edit: I do realise this his still much more affordable than the southeast but just illustrates the difference between generations.

I just looked it up too and you're right - post tax (income tax, NI and council tax) average household income was £34,500 in 2023. It includes cash benefits.

I think that the changes from that time are sometimes hard to quantify. Childcare was less, but often not what it looks like now. As a 7 year old I walked 20 minutes home from school to eat at a neighbour's house, I went to a different neighbour after school - mainly we played out though until my mum got home. Lots of other kids had mums home all day. So childcare costs looked really different - but many were on one income.

And we did only have one car, and a holiday was a nearby rented cottage or one belonging to a friend or relative, and people did not redecorate their houses often, no electronics, etc.

With education, its true that people who went to university were supported, but what affected more people was that most didn't go at all.

We talk about the loss of productivity if parents were more able to care for their own kids - but what about the productivity we lose putting so many kids through crap university programs, when they could be working.

Both myself and others have shown this is not true. There ARE 2?3 bed houses in theSE for less than that

Depends on your entire family set up and attitudes of the generation above and their wealth. There is no way my parents would be going on multiple holidays a year and live in a big house if their own DC and grandchildren did not. They just are not constituted that way. Similarly, once it is our turn, we would share the burden. It runs down the generations in our family. It isn’t just a money thing, it’s help and come to us for holidays, go to Uncle so and so in France and drive there or catch train if need be. Same applies to my in-laws. But perhaps more upper middle class values than middle middle.