To think that after COL change expectations have to change

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

If you are a couple in "professional" or middle-to-highish income jobs, say between £70k to £100k joint family income, is it now unreasonable to expect to raise two children in a middle-class lifestyle in the south?

Example of a couple with a 3 bed house, run one car, two children in primary, so still need after-school and holiday childcare, have a dog.
Would you expect to afford a few coffees each week, a couple of meals out or takeaways each month, a couple of TV subscriptions, a nice holiday abroad, or perhaps a better car instead of the holiday - and not to have to count the pennies when shopping or turn the heating off to save money?

Or is this too much to expect?

Would it be more reasonable nowadays to not afford the coffees and meals, not afford the dog, only cheap camping holidays in UK, old car, no TV subscriptions?
Even when the children are in secondary and no longer need childcare, you then have to worry about helping them afford uni or house deposit or driving lessons.

(On the plus side, at least you own your own house into retirement.)

I think our idea of what a "professional middle-class" lifestyle should be like has to permanently change. With the cost of childcare and housing, we just can't live at the standard we used to.

I was a teen in the 80s. people had started having foreign holidays, but equally many people stayed in the uk. Meals out to the Berni Inn or Beefeater was a rare treat - people seem to eat out alot more nowadays. People didn’t walk down the street with a cup of coffee in their hands. Often there was only one car per household.

I can remember when we hot our first fridge freezer,l (70s) and tvs were rented.

Some of these descriptions of the 80s was not how I remember it, and we lived in a middle class area.

This
We were soundly MC and my mother made do, mended and we went for a meal about once a year.
People are forgetting that you only had what you could afford out of the weekly wage packet, credit was feared and whispered about
" all fur coat and no knickers"

I don't think it's nonsense all. Middle class people in the 80s had less and expected less and it certainly wasn't as common to take foreign holidays or travel long haul or to stay in AI hotels.

Housing was substantially more affordable but a lot of it was more basic and day to day living costs - for food, for clothing, for domestic appliances- were higher too.

The Jospeh Rowntree foundation said in 2024 that the for a family of four to afford a basic lifestyle they would need a pre-tax income of £69,400.

Say you wanted to buy a £500k property in the South East, which I would describe as ‘middle class’. Not grand, just nice and in an ok area.

The mortgage on this might be £2.5-3k a month. That’s your £50k salary gone.

The combination of housing costs and childcare have made it very difficult IMO - and the high tax rates and student loan repayments mean the additional income you can earn is taxed to high heaven before you see it.

Not to mention the crap/ness and limited choice of 80s wine - chianti, Mateus rose and lambrusco...

I grew up in the 80s, one wage household, house would probably cost £1.5m+ now.

We had two cars, holidays abroad, some private schooling, music lessons, expensive hobbies - the works!

My parents will totally admit this is not possible today - my dad only last week remarked on the fact his junior colleagues lived in such modest housing compared to him at the same age, even with two professional incomes you wouldn’t be able to afford the house today!

But yes - my first grad job, salary £28k plus OT - that same graduate job 25(!) years later pays £33500, no overtime.

Or you live in London, where every price is INSANE

We are in this bracket and have 3 kids,a 4 bed detached home. We can still do coffees out etc but within reason so once a week fine but not daily. We take packed lunches to work and have 1 car. We have plenty of trips out, have a vue cinema close to us and I get the cheap seats and usually take snacks. We do take them all to softplay and that can be expensive depending on where you go. We do a theme park or two in the holidays but are helped out by family tickets, previously 3 year old has been free, using vouchers etc. Parks are free and we have a good sized garden with a swing/slide set. We don't have pets. We didn't get the max mortgage we could have and when interest rates went up we were on a fixed rate so that has really helped us.

We are going on holiday this year but we only started going abroad as a family since 2023 as before that other stuff took priority like childcare which was expensive. Now we work around each other so it's no longer required. Next year I want to do up our ensuite so a holiday abroad might not happen or we won't have as many long weekends in the UK. It helps that I am self employed so can work more or less depending on our situation. We are comfortable so when our washing machine died I bought a new one as had savings sat there. We aren't well off though as can't make purchases without thinking of overall monthly budget.

I would like to help the kids out whilst at uni but they willl need to get part jobs. I don't intend to fund house deposits. My job as a parent is to support them, instil confidence so they make their own way in the world not fund it for them.

We have much higher incomes than our parents and are better off than they were despite the cost of living. We aren't comparing like for like though.

We grew up on a small town in the 80s and eating out was a rare treat. In fact there were no restaurants apart from the Little Chef. I never went on a plane until I was an older teen and many friends didn't either.

Takeaways and meals out were a birthday treat.

My parents certainly aren't living like that... My in-laws are though.

But I guess I'm saying, it's not an entire generation and saying that it is (as many often do on these kinds of threads) is just a bit silly.

I read something that said if you were on the equivalent of £80k in the early 90s or something you'd have to earn £250k now to have the same sort of lifestyle today. It sucks.

I can understand quiet quitting and the youngsters not wanting to go above and beyond when working your arse off doesn't even get you a two bed house

You may 'want' a 500k house but you do not 'need' a 500k house. Greed has blinded us all to what affordability actually means.

Agree. We were a middle class family: meal out for birthdays, shopping was not a leisure activity, one car household, holidays in the summer were staying with grandparents, cinema as a treat…
Expectations are certainly higher now.

And if you want a 500k house then that's okay but don't moan about not being able to live comfortably if you've chosen to spend more than you need to on a house. People need to take responsibility for their choices. It is different for renters who get screwed completely and none of it is their choice.

Yeah, I don't think you are necessarily wrong.

And to some extent, some of those things aren't really bad for us, like more meals at home.

I've never been able to really afford the annual abroad holiday thing, I am always surprised at the number of people who do that. I guess they are saving on something I spend on, idk.

Careful. It’s considered ageist to depict older generations as anything other than impoverished on here, you know.

It’s not snobby though, it’s the expectation that working hard at school, studying hard at uni and in professional exams lets you aspire to something better than an ex council place in Hemel. Is that too much to ask? Because if so a lot of young people would be justified in thinking it’s no longer worth working hard.

If that's how it works then perhaps you should work harder and do better in your professional exams. Then you can buy a bigger/better house ?

This is such a narrow and depressing approach to life - is monetary wealth and a big house really the pinnacle of achievement? Isn’t it more important to try and, you know, enjoy life? If someone’s career choice is entirely dependent on what kind of house it can buy them, more fool them tbh.

Plus, many thousands of people work extremely hard in essential jobs that keep society running and have a ceiling on how much they earn. The idea that being academically high achieving and getting a degree = highly paid job hasn’t been true for about 20 years.

The issue is not that living standards for every group are falling but more that the groups are becoming too close.

Professionals who would have historically been mc and expected a certain lifestyle aren't getting it as their costs for childcare, getting to work etc are increasing massively. The people on benefits are getting inflation linked rises, many working people aren't getting 6.5 %. The nmw will be a salary of just shy of £24k, some grad jobs aren't much more than this.

You see it everyday on here, a couple earning seemingly good money but struggling to pay for just the basics. They are taking responsibility for themselves but nit getting the reward. In my view if both parents are working professional jobs they should expect a lifestyle accordingly.

Ii knew no one on that in the early 90’s.

I was on 12k

I'm sure everyone living in those ex council houses work hard too but let's not let that get in the way of the middle class tiny violin concert.

I agree - around 60% of the UK is considered 'middle class' so it should probably be expected that many of those people will be living a very average lifestyle. In reality, there's no link between class and income.

Except the ex council places are often the better quality when compared to modern, and have more storage etc.

people turning their noses up are being snobby and are self-deciding to pay the snobby tax that come with chasing appearances.