So upset at school offer

[kathjee]

Actually sat here crying, sounds so silly. But DS got his third choice, which I was never keen on and is far away.

All his friends got 1st choice and so happy and messaging in the watsapp grp. He's going to be gutted when he gets home from school.

I know we can appeal but iv also heard they are rarely successful. Can anyone help or advise re appeals pls? I feel like we always have such bad luck in these things, without sounding cliche it does always seem to be us who don't get first choices etc 😭.

Obviously this is for England, Scotland have a much more local system.

Was it better when children went to the school in their catchment area and there was no choice?

Parents campaigned to local authorities to have a choice of school, and their elected representatives gave them the choice.

Should it be put back that children have to go to the local school to avoid all the rows and the paperwork? To think that Council tax is high enough as it is, without having whole departments staffed so that parent's choices can be heard.

Perhaps the failed appeals are more likely to be the cost of employing office staff to sort them out?

This is actually a good point. I am from an EU country, where during my childhood everyone generally just did that - go to their neighbourhood / closest school. It meant that there was not much difference between schools in terms of quality. And I also agree, it would be a better use of public money to pay for schools rather than for staff running appeals.

But why not also think about a change to the process for appeals. Is it really necessary to have a written stage as well as an appeal meeting? When I went through it last year, I felt at times that the whole process was more of a literacy contents (reading policies, writing up a good case, defending our case in front of a panel). Both my husband and I are in professions in which we do all these things regularly - but it really made me feel for those who don't have those skills. There were certainly some people in our appeal meeting who were like rabbits in the headlights. Could we not at least take the panel meetings out of the process and decide cases just on written evidence?

By the way, I have heard that other places run even crazier admissions systems. Friends told me that, in Berlin, places are largely distributed by kids' primary marks. This means that kids with good marks have the pick of schools and are more likely to end up at a school nearby, whereas kids who struggle are more likely to have to track halfway through town, often to schools that have their problems. At least here in the UK you can "buy" a place in a good school by buying a house nearby [sarcasm warning!].

atriskacademic · Today 22:50

I am much of the same opinion. All parents want their children to excel at school, and I would say most of them would like their children to go to University, but how many take the child's interests into consideration? Should our schools change from being comprehensive until a child is 16?

Students are leaving university with degrees unable to find a job. How many would have been more successful with a work based apprenticeship course? They can always go to university later to study for a degree.

Perhaps the whole system should be overhauled? Perhaps industry should be telling the education system what they require in their workplaces and introduce pre-apprenticeship courses for pupils under 16 in schools concentrating on industry based lessons. Again, those pupils who show aptitude for a different type of career can take study further, perhaps later..

It might also help pupils who live in industrial areas and are given little access to academic courses on the assumption their parents would not want, or be able to afford university.

Does the whole system needs overhauling, so that the needs of the children, not the aspirations or lack thereof of parents?.

as in Sotland

Scotland's education system produces worse results for children than England's. It is true in both England and Scotland that parental income is the best predictor of a child's performance in school. However, that link is much stronger in England than in Scotland. In England, the gap in performance between children of rich parents and children of poor parents is narrowing, albeit far too slowly. In Scotland it is not. England is going up the international league tables for education performance. Scotland is going down those tables. We know that one of the features of high performing education systems is that schools are allowed to compete with each other for pupils. The evidence available suggests that going back to making all children go to their local school will see us start slipping back down the international league tables, which would not be good for our children's futures.

Parents have the option of having their case decided on the paperwork alone. The vast majority opt for a hearing. They want the chance to present their case to the panel and to be able to question the admission authority. Whether there is a hearing makes little or no difference to the cost.

@prh47bridge Thanks for your insights - it's really good to hear it from someone who knows the system inside out. Yes, I remember now, there is an option of not going to the hearings, but I think most parents would feel that they are lowering their chances if they don't. One way of making these panels more accessible perhaps is having them online (or have the option of joining online). We had the finances to take two mornings off work for these, but I am sure for a lot of people that is not the case.

As someone within the system, can you think of any other ways of making this process more accessible for people with low literacy, English as a 2nd language, etc.?

@atriskacademic we did attend a panel online, but that was during Covid - I am not sure if it is an option currently.

@atriskacademic The appeals code was changed a few years ago so that online and hybrid hearings are allowed as well as face to face. Telephone hearings are also allowed where video conferencing is not possible.

The chair of the panel at most appeals I've been to has tried to help nervous parents and make the appeal as easy for them as possible. Unfortunately, I have come across a few less welcoming chair persons, but there is probably little we can do about that other than improve the training and try to weed out those who are not suited to the role.

I would like to see much better guidance for parents attempting to navigate the system. We will still end up with some parents ignoring the guidance and presenting cases that have no chance of success, but it gives those parents prepared to listen a better chance of presenting a decent case. In particular, I would like to put a stop to those admission authorities (both LAs and schools) that give advice to parents that is, at best, misleading and, at worst, clearly wrong.

I'm sure there are many other ways the system can be improved. It will never be perfect.

@prh47bridge Thank you. That's really helpful! You posted on last year's thread as well and your insights were really helpful to prepare our (successful) case!

In our case, the chairperson in our 2nd, successful meeting, was not very welcoming. It didn't matter too much to us - we know how to deal with this through our jobs and we did deal with it. For instance, she tried to cut us off mid final statement and we just didn't allow it (but remained polite when doing so). But others would probably have just bowed to authority.

I am a research academic in a relevant field and am currently considering ways of supporting parents better through these processes. Your insights, and just reading these threads, are really valuable in this process. And there are many other processes that could be improved, e.g. fighting for SEN provision etc.!

How is it working out?

That puts me in mind of an interview on TV, certainly before covid. It was in the north of England.

A girl was expressing a desire to go to Uni and become a doctor. The teacher said that no one from that area had gone to university and that teachers didn't encourage children to aspire to that because it would be a big disappointment as the parents were not encouraging.

I found that upsetting. I could not understand the attitude, and wondered if it was a north/south divide.

I found that upsetting. I could not understand the attitude, and wondered if it was a north/south divide.

Good heavens, what a massive and provocative generalisation

It's a rich/poor divide, a 'the world is full of opportunities for you/just get through the day and maybe you'll get a job at the end of it' divide, an 'oh, we'll just buy you a flat for university/HOW MUCH is student debt?' divide and an 'of course you'll go to university like the rest of the family and your Aunt will take you into court or board meetings for experience and your Grandad's best friend is looking for somebody this summer/nobody's ever stayed on past a handful of GCSEs' divide.

And why it's a really bad idea to restrict poor kids from crappy estates and areas to the nearest school.

To think that Council tax is high enough as it is, without having whole departments staffed so that parent's choices can be heard.
Perhaps the failed appeals are more likely to be the cost of employing office staff to sort them out?

Whole departments….

maybe many years ago but in my very large LA ( just short of 200,000 children) the ‘whole department’ is two staff members, one of which also has a role in strategic planning.

LA budget cuts by the Conservative government and now continued increasing adult social care, school transport and SEND costs means LA staffing is cut to the minimum.

I agree that it is a rich/poor divide rather than north/south, but it is exacerbated by those teachers who seem to think that their pupils can't be expected to do better because of their backgrounds. If no-one has been to university from this school before, we shouldn't accept that as meaning no-one ever will. We should be encouraging the children to strive to be the first.

As an update, iv heard from a lady who lives in a different town to us and she got our second choice and her neighbour got our first choice. I really don't get it, because that town isn't even in the zones when u look on the maps for the second choice anyway.

And she put it as her 3rd choice. I met another parent at my son's school and she got her second choice which was our first choice (the very good school) and she wasn't even bothered, her son didn't even realise he got into a very good school

I think you need to keep in mind the admission criteria.
It could be that they are higher up the criteria list than you (LAC, pupil premium, service premium, sibling etc - dependent on the school admissions criteria of the school).

if you think there is an error on distance this would be a ground for appeal.

Remember the first/second choice doesn’t mean that you should have had preference over them.

It’ll come down to the admissions criteria.

There will be higher admissions criteria than just distance, and it may be that their child fits into one of those.

We got DDs first choice this week, but my DS got that same school after attending our catchment school but then asking to go on the waiting list as he didn't get on well at all at the catchment school (he's SEN and it's not one of their strengths). He was only on the waiting list for a couple of months before a space became available. If we hadn't got DDs first choice, that would have been my plan of action. I've heard that appeals are rarely successful sadly.

I've heard that appeals are rarely successful sadly

Around 20% of secondary school appeals are successful. A lot of parents don't understand the appeal system, so many of those appealing don't put together a case that stands any chance of success.

I win appeals. I have 5 children and have moved a few times with issues around given schools .
FIrst -Do not say anything detrimental about the given school. Nobody can prove psychological issues such as closeness to friends , since knowing the outcome your child being insular , difficult to manage etc .If it is distance -your child would want to do after school activities- how would that impact on safety -getting home . Tweak out from curriculum of chosen school any subjects they do which are different from foreign languages to tech and apply this . Your child for example is practical , likes modern languages , or this school specialises in - whatever and this school is geared to your child . Mainly it is the effect and change in behaviour which cannot be challenged.

I know I sound like a Debbie downer but...
Please don't start using another female name in a derogatory way. It's bad enough that Karen's get all the shit.
This alliteration doesn't make anyone look big or clever, it just demonstrates how women can diss their sex as much as men diss us.