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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Britain should have nothing to do with this war

594 replies

Foodtimeisit · 01/03/2025 12:54

After yesterday's news, Britain shouldn't be the one funding war as USA has said they are out now. There's no chance Britain can fight this war alone with Ukraine against Russia.
Since this war started, our life has only become miserable with CoL increase.
AIBU to think we shouldn't have anything to do this war and we should fix our own problems first before giving away our tax money?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Wildflowers99 · 01/03/2025 18:47

Leaders from France, Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Turkey, Finland, Sweden, the Czech Republic and Romania have all been invited - as well as the presidents of the European Council, European Commission and Nato Secretary General.

I may be extremely naive here but why is the military might of the countries above combined not enough to enforce security guarantees for Ukraine?

FaithFables · 01/03/2025 18:47

It's really not hard to figure out why we should be backing Ukraine completely, is it?

RaspberryVelvet · 01/03/2025 18:48

sahmtoosen · 01/03/2025 13:08

I disagree . I think Putin only wants Ukraine. It’s clearly always been about the natural resources and he thought it would be easy as Zelensky isn’t an experienced politician or leader. I think a lot of countries backing Ukraine were hoping to help and get something in return (access again to those natural resources) but now it’s gone on so long that Trump has steamrollered in and made it clear what it’s always been about, thought he could get it sorted asap and is now losing his temper as he can’t. He will be warning us off next and telling any country that backs Ukraine that they are also going to be responsible for WW3

Edited

Just a reminder …

To think Britain should have nothing to do with this war
Rosesducks · 01/03/2025 18:48

Reetpetitenot · 01/03/2025 18:40

So why isn't Trump telling Putin to withdraw his troops from Ukraine and stop the war now? All Putin has to lose is his pride. If all parties go with what Trump is advocating, Ukraine stands to lose thousand of s km of territory plus vast mineral wealth.

So basically, Trump's idea of peace is to massage Putin's ego, get his filthy mitts on Ukraine's natural resources and maintain his own and Putin's hubristic tendencies. D'you see why that might not be a great idea.

No one in Europe wants this war, least of all Ukraine, but why are you expecting Zelenskyy to roll over and not Putin? Putin is using Russians as cannon fodder. Why are you not questioning his actions? Are you a Putin apologist? Putin (and Trump) have lied, and lied. It is not Zelenskyy who is the bad guy here. It is not Zelenskyy who should be giving up his country to two greedy depots.

Ah, the sweet allure of diplomacy if only the world worked that way. You think Trump should simply tell Putin to pack up and leave?

As if power bends to polite requests. Putin isn’t playing for pride; he’s playing for territory, influence, and control. And history tells us that men like him don’t retreat unless they are forced to.

Now, let’s talk about Ukraine’s losses. You think Trump is the problem?

The reality is, Ukraine is already bleeding territory, resources, lives. And the longer this drags on, the worse the outcome. Diplomacy isn’t about wishing for the best; it’s about bargaining from a position of strength. If a deal is on the table, it won’t be perfect, but neither is war without end.

As for Zelenskyy ‘rolling over’ no one expects that. But let’s not pretend this is just about Trump and Putin’s egos. Ukraine is a battlefield whether you like it or not.

You can shout about fairness, but fairness never won a war. Strategy did. The real question is: what endgame are you willing to accept?

Because ‘fighting to the last person’ sounds noble until you’re the last person left

MrTiddlesTheCat · 01/03/2025 18:48

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 01/03/2025 13:35

Heraclitus said ‘you cannot fall into the same river twice’. So the circumstances of the mid twentieth century are not those we live in now.

If the sainted EU had kept up its NATO contributions, if their (and our) governments , media etc had observed some basic rules of courtesy (and not burning their boats) towards the POTUS, we might be in a slightly more influential position.

Why do you expect the EU to make contributions to NATO when it's not a member? Very strange.

HelplessSoul · 01/03/2025 18:49

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 01/03/2025 18:13

This.

Of course we should be involved.

Not only is it morally right, not only did we promise to protect Ukraine’s borders, but it’s also in our interest. Putin will be after not just the countries that former russia’s Soviet empire but the whole of Europe.

Considering Putin cant even "get" Ukraine after 3 years, will be a hard job for him to go after anyone else.

And if you feel its morally right to defend Ukraine who wouldnt ever do the same for the UK, then yeh - be sure to get your children on the front line first in your pursuit of standing up for that "right".

🤦‍♂️

Reetpetitenot · 01/03/2025 18:50

Roseducks, Trump wouldn't know anything about diplomacy if it jumped up and bit him on the arse. Diplomacy is not telling Zelenskyy to concede everything.

RaspberryVelvet · 01/03/2025 18:51

Slimbear · 01/03/2025 13:24

Russia has already broken several ceasefires.

Russia could stop the war today, they don’t want to. Just like all the other wars they have started.

528htz · 01/03/2025 18:53

Hwi · 01/03/2025 14:26

I am sorry if I upset you, but foreign countries, including Eastern European ones, are not our concern.

One day people will be saying that about us, then we'll find out how it feels.

LongDarkTeatime · 01/03/2025 18:58

Sorry haven’t rtwt but wanted to share this info on who has actually been funding Ukraine. As usual it seems Trump was over inflating the USA’s contribution.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid033czYXaaWCAciKfA6UEhxrGc8N7txV8tf99iuu4x24FbtNZWyQ3jj7KHdgBK3fHbHl&id=100063511091649

LongDarkTeatime · 01/03/2025 18:59

Here’s what the post says:
In the Constitution of Mensa, it says that Mensa is not allowed to take any political action and cannot hold political affiliations (though Members or groups of members may express opinions as members of Mensa, provided their opinions or actions are not expressed as being those of Mensa as an organization). So while I do have personal opinions on what happened between Trump, Vance, and Zelensky (Володимир Зеленський) during the session with the press at the White House today, I am keeping those to myself. I wanted to provide some fact checking on the numbers being thrown around though, as these numbers are not politics but verifiable numbers.

The USA has not spent $350 billion in Ukraine, nor even $300 billion. I have seen figures ranging anywhere from $119.7 billion (Kiel Institute for the World Economy) to $182.8 billion (U.S. Department of Defense), but the most consistent figure that I have seen is around $175 billion, and only $105.1 billion of that is to the Ukrainian government directly:

  • $2 billion in humanitarian aid
  • $33.3 billion in budget support
  • $69.8 billion in weapons, equipment, and other military support
(Council on Foreign Relations, BBC News, Euronews, US Special Inspector General for Operation Atlantic Resolve)

Most of the remainder is funding various U.S. activities associated with the war in Ukraine, and a small portion supports other affected countries in the region (the $182.8 billion figure includes US military training and replenishing US defence stocks, so it includes all spending on the response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine). (Council on Foreign Relations, BBC News)

Of the $182.8 billion from the USA, only $83.4 billion has been sent, with the remaining $99.4 billion either not yet committed or not yet approved for payment. This is why Ukraine has received only $76 billion from the USA, and the $100 billion that people claim is missing is actually money that has not been sent. (Euronews, Українська правда)

By comparison, the Kiel Institute calculates that, including military, financial, and humanitarian aid to Ukraine, the EU has spent $138.7 billion (compared to their calculation of $119.7 billion from the USA). Their calculations include only support directly given to Ukraine and exclude things like money used to replenish U.S. weapon stocks following donations to Kyiv, funds spent to help neighbouring countries welcome Ukrainian refugees, etc. However, using a broader definition, the European Union has committed $198 billion so far. (BBC News, Washington Post, Fox News)

Of all the funding Ukraine as received, NATO estimates that nearly 60% of the funding for Ukraine has come from across Europe and Canada. (ABC News and BBC News)

Canada has given $19.7 billion in aid to Ukraine:

  • $12.4 billion in financial aid
  • $4.5 billion in military assistance
The remaining funds are spread between humanitarian, development, stabilization, etc. aid funding. (THX News and Government of Canada)

Canada has also provided $5 billion to Ukraine from seized Russian assets, and the money will be repaid from interest earned on the held Russian assets (i.e., Russia will be bearing the burden of repayment). (Global News, National Post, CTV News, and Anadolu Agency)

In total, Ukraine has spent $120 billion of its own money, and Ukraine estimates that that total they have spent on the war is about $320 billion. (Voice of America)

If you're wondering, 35% of the funds going to Ukraine from Europe have been loans, and some of the repayment of those loans are coming from revenues from frozen and seized Russian assets and Ukraine isn't having to pay those portions of the loans, and the rest are really generous terms where Ukraine will be repaying less interest over lengthy repayment periods. The remaining 65% is grants an in-kind support. (Washington Post and BBC News)

*ETA: The actual value of the weapons and equipment sent to Ukraine by the USA is about 60% lower than they were priced because the price was for new stock. Much of the military equipment and ammunition sent to Ukraine is old and of limited combat effectiveness because it came from aging US stockpiles, some of the ammunition is expired, and a majority of the equipment isn't even used by the US military anymore (and therefore has an effective value of $0 to the USA). Normally, this stock would have to be disposed of, but giving it to Ukraine means there are effectively no disposal expenses. Furthermore, much of the funding for Ukraine is being spent in the USA, such as employing US workers to manufacture the replacement equipment and supplies for refilling US stockpiles. (Kyiv Post and AL24news - قناة الجزائر الدولية)

*ETA2: I am unable to share the links to the articles that I am using as sources, as there is an ongoing dispute between the Government of Canada and Facebook that prevents Canadian Facebook users from being able to share or even see news articles from any news agency. Someone shared with me a way to post the links, so I will try to do that later today.

Rosesducks · 01/03/2025 19:00

Hwi · 01/03/2025 14:26

I am sorry if I upset you, but foreign countries, including Eastern European ones, are not our concern.

Ah, the old ‘charity begins at home’ argument dressed up as pragmatism but dripping with short-sightedness.

Let’s get something straight: isolationism is a luxury, one that expires the moment a real threat comes knocking at your door. You think foreign conflicts don’t concern you?

That Eastern Europe’s struggles are their problem alone? Tell me, what happens when a precedent is set that borders don’t matter, that might makes right? Do you think Russia stops at Ukraine? Do you think China isn’t watching?

War isn’t about sentiment; it’s about strategy. Supporting Ukraine isn’t just about helping a neighbour in need it’s about reinforcing the rules that keep the world from descending into chaos.

If we look the other way, we don’t just fail Ukraine; we invite the next invasion, the next dictatorship, the next crisis that we won’t have the luxury of ignoring.

As for resenting foreign aid resentment is a fine thing, but it won’t fill your gas tank when global instability drives prices through the roof. It won’t protect your economy when supply chains crumble because conflict spreads.

It won’t keep Britain safe when alliances weaken, and enemies grow bolder. You may not have ‘the capacity to care,’ but let me tell you when the consequences of inaction come knocking, you’ll wish you had cared a little sooner.

The world isn’t divided up neatly anymore. It never really was. If you refuse to engage beyond your own borders, don’t be surprised when the problems you ignored come marching right up to your doorstep.

IcecreamWhatSandwich · 01/03/2025 19:03

madamweb · 01/03/2025 12:58

So what do you think will happen if we give in to Russia on Ukraine?

That Putin will suddenly become a gentle and benevolent pacifist?

Or that he will look to the next country to invade?

I wonder if there are any lessons from history we could learn here....

Perhaps Putin is mainly interested in invading territory where: a) most of the population is Russian, b) it is historically part of Russia, c) previous US administrations refused to allow the territory to be neutral and deployed WMD there.

The lesson taught by the history of 'domino effects' isn't completely clearcut, is it?

juldan · 01/03/2025 19:06

HelplessSoul · 01/03/2025 18:49

Considering Putin cant even "get" Ukraine after 3 years, will be a hard job for him to go after anyone else.

And if you feel its morally right to defend Ukraine who wouldnt ever do the same for the UK, then yeh - be sure to get your children on the front line first in your pursuit of standing up for that "right".

🤦‍♂️

@HelplessSoul
That’s precisely why we should be supporting Ukrainian resistance to Putin, eventually he will run out of resources. If he gets a break now, he will have a better chance taking another country in future.
Ukraine is the largest country in Europe, if Putin gets a chance to rebuild his army, the Baltic Countries will be just a snack for him. Yes, they are in NATO, but it is obvious that Trump is not going to stand up to Putin so we will be in the same situation we are with Ukraine.

Crumblebee8 · 01/03/2025 19:07

juldan · 01/03/2025 18:42

@Crumblebee8 No it isn’t 1940s, but you should look at more recent history. In 1989 the Soviet Union was a fully nuclear armed state, but the West (mainly Reagan and Thatcher) had put so much pressure on them through the arms race, that USSR de facto bankrupted itself. This allowed the Central/Eastern countries to break away and regain independence.

If we keep supporting Ukraine, there is a chance the same will happen to Putin’s regime. His resources are not indefinite.He already has to rely on North Koreans for help. Maybe even his own countrymen will say ‘enough is enough’.

On the other hand, if we give him Ukraine the pressure will be off. He will have time to rebuild his finances, replenish his arsenal and then move on. He’s got typical Soviet mentality and believes half of Europe should be his.
And unless the whole regime crumbles, there will be someone else to take over when he dies.

What you seem to be suggesting is that we keep the war going for as long as possible, for the "chance" that it will bankrupt Russia. Is that chance really worth hundreds of thousands more young people being killed? It also seems very unlikely - China don't want Russia to fall and most other countries outside the west have continued doing business with them.

Ukraine has a much smaller population and is already forcing conscripts to fight against their will- where's their voice in all this? Once peace is made, the west should focus on strengthening defenses and increasing military spending- but keeping this war going is just a tragic waste of human life.

RaspberryVelvet · 01/03/2025 19:15

528htz · 01/03/2025 18:53

One day people will be saying that about us, then we'll find out how it feels.

Remember Hitler invaded Poland and that’s when this country went to war with Germany. Should we have just said oh well, it’s only Eastern Europe?

juldan · 01/03/2025 19:18

Crumblebee8 · 01/03/2025 19:07

What you seem to be suggesting is that we keep the war going for as long as possible, for the "chance" that it will bankrupt Russia. Is that chance really worth hundreds of thousands more young people being killed? It also seems very unlikely - China don't want Russia to fall and most other countries outside the west have continued doing business with them.

Ukraine has a much smaller population and is already forcing conscripts to fight against their will- where's their voice in all this? Once peace is made, the west should focus on strengthening defenses and increasing military spending- but keeping this war going is just a tragic waste of human life.

@Crumblebee8
No, I do not want the war going for as long as possible, but Ukraine has a right to independence and so do the other European countries. Giving Putin Ukraine will not give us peace. He got Georgia and Crimea and that didn’t stop him.

Reetpetitenot · 01/03/2025 19:19

IcecreamWhatSandwich · 01/03/2025 19:03

Perhaps Putin is mainly interested in invading territory where: a) most of the population is Russian, b) it is historically part of Russia, c) previous US administrations refused to allow the territory to be neutral and deployed WMD there.

The lesson taught by the history of 'domino effects' isn't completely clearcut, is it?

Edited

Say what now?????? Most of the population of Ukraine is not Russian. Russians made up less than 20% of the population. Are you from the Trump school of Stats and misinformation?

RaspberryVelvet · 01/03/2025 19:22

MrTiddlesTheCat · 01/03/2025 18:48

Why do you expect the EU to make contributions to NATO when it's not a member? Very strange.

Countries in NATO:

  1. Albania
  2. Belgium
  3. Bulgaria
  4. Canada
  5. Croatia
  6. Czech Republic
  7. Denmark
  8. Estonia
  9. France
  10. Germany
  11. Greece
  12. Hungary
  13. Iceland
  14. Italy
  15. Latvia
  16. Lithuania
  17. Luxembourg
  18. Montenegro
  19. Netherlands
  20. North Macedonia
  21. Norway
  22. Poland
  23. Portugal
  24. Romania
  25. Slovakia
  26. Slovenia
  27. Spain
  28. Turkey
  29. United Kingdom
  30. United States
  31. Finland (joined in 2023)
Plenty of them are in the EU.
LizzieW1969 · 01/03/2025 19:23

AliasGrace47 · 01/03/2025 14:19

As a Pole I'm utterly disgusted you blithely say things were better when we & other Eastern Europeans (an amorphous 'they' to you) were brutally subjugated. So selfish. W your I'm alright Jack attitude, 'Saudis are fine bc they buy our armaments, women's rights don't matter bc they're overseas', I wonder if you would expect any other country to help us if we had a misogynistic dictator or war?

I agree not everyone can be helped, mostly we can't, but no charity or even sympathy is an extreme attitude. Would you really say any aid given is immoral when in some countries children die of starvation, in comparison to here, where many suffer but that is rarer? I agree aid can't be given now but it's a bit much to say it was always wrong to give it.

Edited

I completely agree. My F’s family are Czech and my F was a refugee from Communism. I didn’t see a lot of his family until I was 20 because of the ‘Iron Curtain’, because my F would have been arrested if we’d visited then Czechoslovakia.

Remember the Berlin Wall as well? And the sheer joy when it came down? And then the Velvet Revolution in Prague? The excitement that was felt when the Iron Curtain came down indicates just what difficult times they had been.

There were also real fears of a nuclear war in those days, which led to the ‘arms race’. Hardly a safe world during the Cold War.

RaspberryVelvet · 01/03/2025 19:25

As of 2025, the European Union (EU) countries that are also members of NATO are:

  1. Belgium
  2. Bulgaria
  3. Croatia
  4. Czech Republic
  5. Denmark
  6. Estonia
  7. France
  8. Germany
  9. Greece
  10. Hungary
  11. Iceland
  12. Italy
  13. Latvia
  14. Lithuania
  15. Luxembourg
  16. Netherlands
  17. Poland
  18. Portugal
  19. Romania
  20. Slovakia
  21. Slovenia
  22. Spain
  23. Finland
Viviennemary · 01/03/2025 19:26

Ii don't think Trump did himself any favours. We won't rush to help the US in future. But not sure if funding the war is a good idea for this country. But on the other hand what will Putin do next.

RaspberryVelvet · 01/03/2025 19:27

MrTiddlesTheCat · 01/03/2025 18:48

Why do you expect the EU to make contributions to NATO when it's not a member? Very strange.

As of 2025, the European Union (EU) countries that are also members of NATO are:

  1. Belgium
  2. Bulgaria
  3. Croatia
  4. Czech Republic
  5. Denmark
  6. Estonia
  7. France
  8. Germany
  9. Greece
  10. Hungary
  11. Iceland
  12. Italy
  13. Latvia
  14. Lithuania
  15. Luxembourg
  16. Netherlands
  17. Poland
  18. Portugal
  19. Romania
  20. Slovakia
  21. Slovenia
  22. Spain
  23. Finland
juldan · 01/03/2025 19:30

IcecreamWhatSandwich · 01/03/2025 19:03

Perhaps Putin is mainly interested in invading territory where: a) most of the population is Russian, b) it is historically part of Russia, c) previous US administrations refused to allow the territory to be neutral and deployed WMD there.

The lesson taught by the history of 'domino effects' isn't completely clearcut, is it?

Edited

@IcecreamWhatSandwich

Say what?
a) 22% of Ukrainian population is Russian
https://www.demogr.mpg.de/books/drm/009/6.pdf
b) History of Ukrainian nationality goes back to 9th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukrainian_nationality#:~:text=The%20history%20of%20Ukrainian%20nationality,the%209th%20to%2012th%20centuries.
c) Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security provided by US and the allies.

Biscuitsnotcookies · 01/03/2025 19:35

Maybe Ukraine won’t be so quick to sacrifice their nuclear weapons again. Probably it’s the first thing they will do, if the US and allies do not fulfil their obligations