Secretly Recorded by GP

[UPSETPATIENT]

I am seeking advice on a matter. I found out my accident that my GP recorded a telephone appointment without permission. I have complained to the practice and ICB, however they have not done anything. Does anybody have any advice or suggestions

@TurquoiseDress no idea what’s gone on here then. My GP does exactly as you describe so no idea why they were recording OP. Such a breach of trust if they were.

I think there's quite a misperception going on with some of the posts on this thread!

A GP would make contemporaneous notes in the medical record ie it would be done there & then/once patient out of the room/before calling next one in

Am pretty sure the GP does not have time to listen back over recordings before deciding what to put in the medical record- they would have zero time for that

In any case, it is the GP surgery/telephone system which records the phone calls, it's not the individual GP deciding to maid a recording, just for fun you know

There's a lot of over-thinking going on IMO

Honestly, a GP is not sat there with their feet up, perusing phone call recordings, they are not actually going to do anything with it

Unless there was a complaint/allegations made and then the practice manager would get the specific recording out

Nor do I, but I don't object if they do, but then I have nothing to hide, and I have been registered with my practice for decades. They know me inside out and upside down. They are the best source of information to back up benefit claims, and that seems to be the OPs most worrying point.

I can understand a fear that perhaps the GP could say something that would see a failure in a patient's application. If that happens, the OP should discuss it with the GP first.

We probably now have to resign ourselves to the fact that records need to be kept and recording is the easiest way of keeping an accurate record. The OP should be given access to what is kept about her.

When you consider that all mobile phones have GPS and at any given time their whereabouts are known, a recorded conversation seems pretty mundane compared to that. There are also now comprehensive systems of CCTV on most city streets which can record actions taken by anyone, and on busses too.

We are constantly watched and recorded wherever we go. We have to accept it now.

I am very sorry that I have upset you more and added to your burden.

There is a Family Practitioner Committee which you can apply to to discuss your case.

It is composed of lay people with professional advisors. Have you approached them to discuss your problem?

I have bowed to the inevitable, but then that is me, and I gave my opinion. I am very sorry to have upset you. It was not my intention. I had hoped to allay your fears.

I think what is very important about your post is that you have told us that the recordings take place and we have a right to hear those recordings, but what we cannot do is undo what we said to anyone.

It is the same on the internet. You have a history recorded on your computer which can be opened to anyone and everyone, so none of us can do anything in confidence any more.

Such an odd way of thinking. Your Dr gave the best medical treatment to your husband as s/he is a Dr. That’s their job. Being a medic (or auxiliary/support staff) doesn’t give you free
reign to play fast and loose with GDPR and GMC guidelines. It’s possible to be both supportive of the NHS and critique it. There should be no sacred cows.

the point being missed here is that it appears that many GP practices do not adhere to the law and GMC guidelines or they adhere to the minimum legal standard (privacy notice on a website) but are not proactive in making patients fully aware of how their sensitive personal data (which a phone consultation absolutely is) is collected, stored and shared. Whether an individual cares or not is secondary to that - don’t give a flying one? Fine. But don’t belittle and berate others who do care about their personal data. Why they care is up to them but it is absolutely their legal right to both receive medical care AND be informed about collection, storage and distribution of their data.

If a crime was committed by a GP then the OP has the right to complain about it to the family practitioner committee.

I have missed no point. The OP has complained her call was recorded and it seems to me used against her, or she would not have said what she did. She wanted her GP to back up a benefit claim. Did I miss whether she received the benefit or not?

In the OP's experience, she complained to someone who overruled her. I am very sorry that she was not given a chance to say why she is upset. Unfortunately, you cannot undo what you said. You can only be very careful of what you say on the phone. You can, of course, write a letter, which should be saved to your file.

You misunderstand my opening remarks. Of course a doctor is trained to do just that,

On that occasion I phoned my GP and gave him my late husband's BP reading. He was on the doorstep three minutes later. To this day I don't know how he crossed the main road. Perhaps GPs have sirens and lights too.

He immediately phoned for paramedics who came just as we were getting my husband on the floor. It was as though they were waiting around the corner, first a motorcycle paramedic, then the ambulance.

My GP might have been trained to do his job, but what he did for us was exemplary. We were just ordinary patients receiving excellent service and I don't mind if to do his job my GP needed to record phone calls. That is me, personally.

Might I ask if you were you awarded the PIP eventually?

My GP surgery make it clear that they record ALL calls. 🤷‍♀️

My GP surgery always does it - no special needs. They just do it and no worries from me. 🙄

They can't record secretly, but the guidance makes it clear that recording is fine so long as parents are told. I strongly suspect that, somewhere along the line, OP was told.

well, first off, it’s clear that experiences differ. I’ve checked two practices I have personal knowledge and experience of and one has a privacy and data document with a bullet mentioning telephone calls and the other doesn’t. Assuming that both do indeed record consultations, the second practice isn’t telling anyone and doesn’t have a recorded message - maybe it’s not recording and doesn’t need one. In the former case where there is a data privacy document, it could be argued that the data collected is of such extreme sensitivity a more pro-active approach is needed to make anyone calling in, or being called, aware that they are being recorded as realistically, long standing patients may not be aware of a line hidden in t&c/data privacy documents buried on a website. That is not a meaning route to make patients aware.

I suspect that, as shared in a link by a pp, this may come down technical and human error. Technical as it appears it is challenging to add a message to outgoing calls. Human as relying on the medic, even if they are briefed to communicate is cumbersome. I suspect this one is filed under too difficult/don’t care. Point is GP practices and posters on Mumsnet don’t get to decide which parts of GDPR are applied and they don’t get to decide whether other people should care or not especially not on the basis that everyone has to basically be really grateful for any medical received.

My GP recorded message says calls may be recorded for training purposes when I phone them. I assume this is for medical receptionists.

If my GP does a telephone consult for a specific issue I am not informed it is being recorded. Therefore I assume it is not. If I thought it were and I didn't want it to be for whatever reason I would insist on a face to face consultation. Medical consultations are private and can only be shared with my explicit consent unless there is a safeguarding issue.

Medical reports from GPs for PIP are often pointless because they either lack knowledge from the bodies they have referred to (because they understand consent) or because there is no one to refer to - my son is autistic, always will be etc. But rather than admit that they will disengage. DWP insist on evidence so you end up doing SAR.

GPs shouldn't record private consultations without express consent. It is a breach of trust. The patient retains the right to not share that information unless there is a safeguarding issue.

DWP is a different matter.

The patient is also allowed to refuse it. Just like you can refuse to have a med student there.

As the OP is quite she doesn’t want a telephone appointment to be recorded, I doubt she was told about it! She’d have said NO don’t you think??

The sad thing about this situation is that it seem that GP can get away with breaking the law. It been suggested I contact the GMC - I doubt if they will do anything.

Were you successful in your application for PIP?

You can do that via the Family Practitioner Committee, or whatever it is now called. They can advise you.

There is a group on Facebook which is for complaints against the NHS. You might find there are people on that group who have also had this issue and can tell you how they faired.

There are also many solicitors whose sole interest is in issues with the NHS and all aspects of it. They are in prime position to advise you.

There are also Associations like Scope and Mind who can give you the advice of their experiences, or you can go on their chat and discuss it with people who are suffering the same thing.

They will all have a better understanding than me, who can only give an opinion, as are many who have responded on here and have tried to help you.

Those calls won't be easily accessible. I've worked for a couple of companies who record calls and if I've needed to find one (normally because a customer has lied about something I've said) it's not something I can just grab, I have to email someone from our tech team with the number, date and time of the call. It's not something that someone will just come across - especially in the NHS when they can check who has accessed particular files.
I'm shocked your surgery doesn't have it stating calls are recorded though. Ours does and I take it to mean all calls, not just ones to the receptionists.

I am still waiting to find out. It under review.

Do you have a link.

That is good news really. You just have to make sure you ticked all the boxes. If you only experience something once or twice a week, you still have to tick all the boxes because it is possible it can happen more than once or twice.

Those huge books of forms are marked by the ticks. I think it might be a school leaver's job. You cannot always tell how many times you experience whatever the question is, so no harm in ticking as many boxes as you can.

Make sure you put in all the medication and any aids you might need - splints etc. anything if you are physically disabled you can need. It helps to give in letters from health practitioners and relatives, friends who have to help you.

Cancer patients do not have to wait for a review.

I hope you are successful. It is your present condition that counts, not what you might have said and done in the past. I hope you get your help with costs, because I know first hand how difficult it is when you are disabled, whatever your disability.

You can find a link by your search engine. Mine is google. I am not sure what it is called now. I used to be a County Councillor and the Council then had one member on the Family Practitioner and I was that. I also sat on the Tribunals set up to listen to complaints.

I cannot tell you what the set up is now, but I do know that it is not all professionals, and you don't need a lawyer.

When I worked in a private hospital, all phone calls were recorded including full pre-assessment questionnaires with patients, it’s something that is routinely done

It's not against the law. Best practice does ask that patients should be reminded when calls are recorded but absolutely no legal requirement to do so on each contact. If a clinician lied and said calls weren't recorded when they were this would be Just like it would not be breaking the law through you to record 'covertly' but it's just requested that you don't do so.

In reference to your prev reply though, each area can/will be different but in my area we have Paramedics 'specialising' in MH - partly because of this we all have opportunity to rotate through their service seeing patients/doing so home the home visits/checks. We are integrated into talking therapies (formally IAPT it was rebranded a few years back) and we all have access to comprehensive notes from the MH teams made during their consultations. It's needed because we'll see these patients ourselves via 111/999 and need the continuity to have a hope of doing so safely. They're not ringfenced separately any differently from a GP consultation on a sore throat.

Sleepy Rich, To the best of my knowledge, I have been advised that it is against the law, but it is a civil matter. Generally, in civil cases, you need to instruct a lawyer, which is not something I want to do. I understand that in the judicial system, it is frowned upon to record people without their knowledge. For instance, in family matters, covertly recording someone can be disapproved of, and if you submit any recording as evidence, you must provide all related materials, not just those that support your case.

I imagine that as a paramedic, you deal with specific scenarios and patients. In some instances, I can see the benefit of having access to certain notes. However, most patients do not fall into this category, and, often, people won’t find themselves in a crisis, emergency, or become acutely unwell. Additionally, not everything seen by a mental health team will be reviewed by a psychiatrist or psychiatric nurse—the needs vary significantly. I am surprised that your service allows access to IAPT (Improving Access to Psychological Therapies) notes, as these primarily contain therapy-related information, particularly since most of these patients do not have a serious mental illness. I believe this is inappropriate and a breach of patient privacy. There is no justification for accessing these notes. I am thankful that my trust does not permit this.

I would be upset if a paramedic or a GP had access to my notes, and I wouldn't engage with services if everyone had access to my personal information. I personally do not want someone who is not trained in mental health to be accessing my notes.