To think that Trump is not going to honor any agreement about Ukraine

[FancyRedRobin]

I'm seeing that Starmer is going over to say to Trump that he should offer security guarantees with the deal with Ukraine.

I just don't believe that Trump or America will honor any agreement made.

And what consequences can we leverage on them to make them do so? I'm not sure there enough levers to do so.

We've allowed them to have an outsize influence on world affairs and now the tiger is eating our face.

I do think millions more deaths is incomprehensible. Too many young lives.

There was no winning, just funding, fighting and deaths

Yes, we need to see US and Russia as a joint entity now.

I think this is the fundamental point.

And Putin certainly knows this which means he has very little reason to negotiate with Europe.

@hamstersarse

On him calling Zelensky a dictator.. I really don’t think people are used to seeing proper hard negotiation in action,

Trump wants peace and some money back, Zelensky has been lauded as a superhero for years (in many ways correctly) but he can’t negotiate peace if he just slates Putin and lauds Zelensky. He needs to put Z down a peg or 2, ensure he knows he doesn’t just get exactly what he wants, because that’s actually impossible. Meanwhile, he can’t just slate Putin otherwise he won’t engage at all.

Its negotiation, world class negotiation and however much you want to believe all the Baddy Trump rhetoric, the facts speak for themselves

World class negotiation? How would you know? What I know is that Trump is not experienced in diplomacy, nor does he show any delicacy of statesmanship or tact. I'd expect those are key skills for any negotiator. Putin, on the other hand, has been in control for many years. Before he was President, he was KGB and FSB. He knows what he is doing and would play Trump like a Steinway.

Trump doesn't need to bring Zelenskyy down at all - he could make no comment there, and likewise, he doesn't need to slate Putin, either. Just learning to make no stupid public comment would be a fantastic start.

Jesus it's not world class negotiation. It's a blunder bus

He just hates any criticism and loves flattery and is very fickle

He will have backtracked on everything within a week.
Saying he didn't call Z a dictator. Pathetic

Yes, we need to see US and Russia as a joint entity now.

@UnderHisEeyore it's hard to match this to the media jubilation on the meeting between Trump and Starmer

Do you think it was a success? Or more just theatre, or other

Trump is as undisciplined as an unruly child, I hope there is lasting peace and that Ukraine don't get screwed over but I don't trust him. All I can trust is that he will do what suits himself and that changes according to the circumstances on a daily/weekly basis.

Of course Ukraine is getting screwed over. It's being strong armed into giving away its natural resources, the US are moving in to mine, it's giving away 20% of it's land. There's no security guarantee and who is paying to rebuild the country?

I think it depends on who you are looking at from what angle. For UK I think we have officially shown we are happy to appease Trump and therefore Russia. We have more than likely told Ukraine this is the best deal too.

Personally I think we are stuck because of Brexit and are at risk of finding ourselves siding with Russia and US; of course that is only a risk if you see that as a threat to free speech/democracy/gender and diversity rights.

Trump is trying to bully Putin too. He keeps saying Putin will agree to the peacekeeper Nato troops. But Putis has said that was not spoken about and does not look happy.
I think Trump may bite more than he can chew.

Arm Ukraine properly, and not just trickle down old equipment in miniscule numbers? Russia will go home with tail between legs in few weeks in this case, and it probably result in a coup / civil war that will dethrone Putin and his clique and defang Russia (that is also likely to break down into multiple states in this case).

All military analysts agree that Ukraine was given just enough to survive, but not enough to win or even seriously push back. Used as a cheap human shield really to protect "posher" Europe.

How would I know?
Mainly because he’s got a deal?

I know that with all your emotion you want Trump to fail, but the truth is that all the other leaders have failed to bring about peace. They barely even tried.

Saying that he didn’t need to bring Z down a peg or 2 tells me you definitely don’t understand the dynamic that was needed to do a deal

It's not a deal ffs. It's capitulation to putin and wiping out Ukraines future at the same time based on lies and misinformation. There is no negotiation in that its rather easy, it just takes a perverse mindset. It's not emotion, just distain at their insular approach

Its the other parties that are trying to force it into a deal, trying not to hand everything to superpowers on a plate.

I don't think you understand the world stage at all. And our role on it

I see you've also altered your narrative a little now that you've been corrected over conversations that have been had with Russia . Funny that

Wiped out Ukraine’s future?

lies and manipulation?

You are going to have to expand on these statements because I don’t understand the world stage

Withdrawing support
Lying about the amount given to them ( changes value every day)and the quality of equipment given / boost to US economy
Demanding repayment and saying money has gone missing?
Saying Ukraine were responsible for the war?
Voting with Russia at UN
Calling Z a dictator then pretending he hadn't?
Forcing an agreement without security ( so far)
Saying Ukraine had no cards to pay, shouldn't expect land back, and can't join Nato?

Other than those, nothing major no

Because Europe, including the UK had not spent enough on defence over the last couple of decades and don't have the military capability without us backing.

They should have played a recording of him saying that back to him!

I think it was a post on the truth social platform, I can't remember if he physically said it again

Looks like Zelenskyy and Trump are meeting and press conference later

Listening to some stuff on radio it seems Putin and Zelenskyy are still a bit far but who knows.

It was a Ukrainian MP and the US indicated more was going on behind the scenes

If it is only talk, I do not really care.
But, I am not sure this is working this way for Putin.
Really, Europe cannot afford to embolden Putin. And Trump may find that there is some resistance from Europe on that point.
Peace, yes we do want and need peace. But there is a need to secure said peace and safety here. It is the security what we are concerned about.

Blimey White House

Christ. Well you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink

Its like watching kids.

Did I hear that Vance asked Z if he had ever thanked America for their support?

He's thanked them so many times!!!

Trump really is an irredeemable PoS.

The sad thing is, this batshit foreign policy is all him. If Trump died in his sleep, no way would this Putin-appeasement persist under Vance or anyone else.