Multi Millionaires Complaining Again

[ARealitycheck]

I see our multi-millionaire landowners had another moan today at a labour party conference. Oh the woes of having to pay half the tax over a period 8 years longer than the rest of the public.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2ljdvqegkeo

Not a good look when the spokesperson is the owner of a farm obviously worth £5m who has been in receipt of circa £90k subsidy money annually in recent years. While standing in front of machinery that is built anywhere but the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defra-to-meet-the-cost-of-removing-sheep-killed-in-snow

There ya go. At the time I'm thinking of, I think the payment was around £300 for a ewe and around £100 for each lamb. This was more than the bloody things were making at market. All because despite severe snow being forecast, some farmers didn't bother their arses to bring them in as that would cost too much in feed.

Do you just make stuff up as you go along?

I urge people to click that link - which goes to an information page from 2013 (12 years ago) where the government pledged funding to farmers to help with the cost of disposing the over 40,000 sheep killed in heavy snow that year. They weren't being paid the value of the animals, just help with the cost of getting rid of them which many farms couldn't afford on top of losing their flock. Presumably the government realised the alternative was dead sheep piling up of farmers couldn't afford to pay the fallen stock removal bill.

Some farmers who were badly hit (I.e. lost their entire flock/ income) were also able to apply to a hardship fund for the year.

A link to the national sheep association website from the time provides more detail

https://nationalsheep.org.uk/our-work/news/1240/latest-information-for-snow-hit-farmers-on-claiming-hardship-payments/

and another link to after the heavy snow in 2018 in Northern England where the government wouldn't help with disposal costs like they had in 2013

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/no-money-for-livestock-killed-in-snow-says-defra

Which again shows the help that the public purse gives to farmers that isn't supplied to other businesses.

If as an example a car garage gets flooded out, loses all it's stock, all the equiptment needed to do repairs destroyed. Who pays for that?

Other business doesn’t feed us. Other business has always been different. This is a miserable thread. Who pays for farmers losing stick? Insurance pays for garage stock! I know - let the state take over the land. Let’s be communist and see how well that works! If farming pays so well how come land is being converted to solar panel farms?

Not this tripe again.

I would imagine the garage would be able to apply to one of the flood support schemes that are normally created after a flooding event

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-payments-for-communities-affected-by-flooding

Small to medium sized businesses can apply for Business recovery grants of around £2500

How much of a ramp for instance would £2500 pay for do you think? That's before the £thousands in stock damaged.

@TizerorFizz You do know that livestock can be insured also?

But in the cases I am talking about in this instance. The farmers despite having warnings days in advance of heavy snow. Left their animals out to suffer and die, and then complained about being hard done to wanting goverment help.

If the garage owner had been made aware of severe flooding likely 3 days prior, would it be reasonable to be asking why the hell didn't you mitigate by moving the vehicles?

There is still a lot of transferable skills moving from dairy to sheep though! It's not the same as the jump to get into farming in the first place!

@ARealitycheck Unlikeky. Is your pet insured aagainst death? Do you know how much it costs? Have you ever insured a horse for example? You are frankly jealous. Farms are mostly small businesses. Very few ads even medium sized. Ws pay £160 billion pa for the NHS . Our food is inportebt too. Like defence. You cannot look at Clarkson and think he’s normal - plus where can I buy a British tractor?

They don't like it up em do they, rosy cheeked chinnies. Oiks demanding money, what next pip pip.

But the same as previously pointed out still applies. The lad straight out of college in any trade knows the sum total of bugger all about running a business. He learns that along the way. The same applies to farming. What makes a hired herdsman incapable of being a Farmer despite having the same knowledge of the land and animals?

Hired herdsman's wife probably isn't his brother.

I have a damn good idea of insuring a business. It doesn't come cheap. But you are rightly pointing out that farms are businesses. If they are small businesses they won't be worth £3m plus where the inheritance tax comes into play for most.

If these businesses are as unprofitable as we keep being told, then they do clearly need new owners.

Not 100% on UK tractor manufacturing now. But one of the very few left was New Holland.

It’s just to force a land grab for quick cash by the rich non land owners.

BNG credits came in last year. The value of fallowed land for environmental offsetting is now incredible!

That’s my opinion anyway. Short sighted greed and corruption. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'll accept your apology in due course shall i?

Cows are culled due to low milk yield as they age.... Farmers don't keep them once yields drop, 5 to 6 years is the normal age for this, their natural life span of 15 to 20 years is irrelevant in this discussion on farm practices.

I ve taken plenty of cows to slaughter, its horrifying, healthy animals turned to pet food because they no longer can produce milk or can't get into calf - they are intelligent animals, with their own unique characters.

The bird flu cull scheme compensates for birds culled, but not deemed to be infected, as part of preventative measures.

Record prices for all red meats, milk, eggs and grain, far in excess of inflation.

Vast majority of farmers do not lose all their stock & will receive compensation for compulsory culled animals.

Land is sold by farmers for development and solar because these companies will pay 100s of 1000s per hectare, its just human greed.

They also get £4 billion per year in subsidy, if we went to a no subsidy regime as NZ did many years ago, that £4billion would get us back to providing NHS dentistry for all.

NZ still feeds its self, still exports, not suggesting we go down this route but subsidy can lead to some very wasteful farm practices.

Speaking of compensation, does anyone recall seeing the report on Country file of that farmer whose farmhouse ended up being an island in the middle of flooded land? He got no compensation because he was out of the payment radius for floods in his area. It's not like a garage flooding. The land takes a long time to recover and be viable for production.

I felt sorry for the poor bugger. The value of land depends on its viability in terms of production. Given that it's been so severely affected by flooding, no property developers would be looking at it for housing (at least not reputable ones who would pay good money for it). He's stuck with a farm, the value of which has plummeted.

Insurance!

The enemies of the farmers are supermarkets.

The inheritance tax loophole is over pricing land. If the land value falls because it's no longer a 40% rax dodge it will improve the chances of younger farmers to acquire land and business investment. The ratio of asset to return is ridiculous. The reason it is so low is because of IHT loophole.

In terms of the small farms being passed generational, surely when Grandad Archer reaches 70 he passes the asset to Young Mr Archer whose son the Even Younger Mr Archer is going to Cirencester college. That will give him an almost certain nil liability and allow the younger generation to improve.

This policy is good

Not as simple as that. Farmers need to be careful of the gifts with reservation of benefits rule which mean if the old guy continues to live in a family farm house, the gift may be invalid. What if the old guy dies before he gifts the farm, or within 7 years of the gift? What about loans and leases in the old guys name? Farms are very complicated businesses and what is simple for a normal person, I.e. gifting a shedload of cash or shares or a holiday home isn’t that simple for a complex farming business. If the farmhouse or a new barn is mortgaged, the bank may not allow it to be gifted. Of course there are ways to plan, but sometimes life gets in the way of plans!

Yes sure but most people also face these hurdles if they wish to avoid IHT for their beneficiaries.
But unlike Farmers, will have to pay 40%, within 6 months, even if the estate has not yet been distributed.

At the end of the day, if we want better public services, better paid armed forces, nurses and teachers, then, at least in the short term, we have to pay more tax.

Just listening to a news item on council services, despite more money in real terms, services are falling behind, more older people needing care, more demand on child social services, more pot holes, due to mtce cuts and weather conditions.

How do fund this, if everyone claims "Can't pay more tax, my sector is a special case"

I think we have always supported farming. We are not self sufficient of course but we need good stewardship of land. No one making loads of money leads their land for solar panels. If they are not making thst much, why not? It’s business and it’s making a greater return on the land. No more subsidies so we are all happy!

Many farmers are asset rich and cash poor. The returns are not great and the whole misconception of what ordinary farmers earn is totally hijacked by the tax haven farmers. I think many farmers have been too slow to think about succession planning and tax and far more need advice. High prices perceived by the public are not seen as returns by farmers.

My DH had business negligence (PI) insurance costing well over £100,000 a year. Insuring animals on a farm is wholly different and not comparable. My DH wasn’t going to lose his staff. Farms losing animals to disease is a much bigger issue. We need to accept farming and land care matter and there’s a price for this. Forcing out smaller farms means larger ones with farms being bought up and amalgamated. Not sure that’s best for anyone. Railing against farmers will bring on super farms and big business. Be careful what you wish for.

Obviously. But all of us pay less tax if everyone pays their share so we are all entitled to understand why asset rich millionaires feel exempt from paying tax.
Average life expectancy for males in rural settings is 80, and women is 83, hence the arbitrary suggestion of 70 to "retire from ownership" if passing on to the next generation as it is very likely to allow the seven-year rule to apply.
Regarding the business arrangements and loans, this needs to be done anyway and why not do it when the family is not gripped with grief in the aftermath of death?
It is the truth that agricultural land is over valued and needs to be reset because the rate of return doesn't allow for investment or new entrants to the market.

If it is about protecting a family tradition then it doesn't matter what the value is and if it is owned by the middle/younger members of the family then it is passed on tax free.
Why does Grandpa Archer need to own it until the last moment if it is a true family co-operative undertaking?
At the moment, if the farm passes to an indifferent generation they can sell it without triggering a tax.
As I say, I'd rather see millionaires pay more so we can raise the tax free allowance for everyone else.

It would be impossible for some farms to house their entire flock. They would be putting fodder out in the fields. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

I think you need to understand that loads of people in London and SE are “millionaires” due to property and pensions. It’s just a ludicrous idea that these people are rich. Plus there are not enough ultra rich to make any difference to raising tax bands for millions of people. What we need is the ultra rich to stay though. They are leaving snd we need their business.

Governments grabbing what people have withes for never feels good. It’s often counter productive and our bigger issue is millions not working at all.