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Multi Millionaires Complaining Again

232 replies

ARealitycheck · 25/02/2025 18:49

I see our multi-millionaire landowners had another moan today at a labour party conference. Oh the woes of having to pay half the tax over a period 8 years longer than the rest of the public.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2ljdvqegkeo

Not a good look when the spokesperson is the owner of a farm obviously worth £5m who has been in receipt of circa £90k subsidy money annually in recent years. While standing in front of machinery that is built anywhere but the UK.

OP posts:
TitusMoan · 26/02/2025 20:50

feelingalittlehorse · 26/02/2025 19:31

Basically, if you asked me to suggest a group that weren’t pulling their weight and contributing fairly to our society; believe you me, OP, ‘farmers’ would not even be on that radar….

What would be? Hedge fund managers?

Clavinova · 26/02/2025 20:56

BurntBroccoli
let's hope this government see sense and start to move towards the EU again

Farmers in France are not happy and Macron is still hoping to block the Mercosur trade deal with South American countries;

22 Feb 2025
French President Emmanuel Macron has reiterated his intention to block the EU-Mercosur trade agreement, arguing that it threatens French agriculture, undermines environmental standards, and creates unfair competition for European farmers.

More than 600 French parliamentarians have signed a letter to Ursula von der Leyen, arguing that the conditions for approving the Mercosur deal have not been met.

Demonstrations have included gatherings outside government offices and road blockades, reflecting the growing dissatisfaction among French farmers regarding what they see as unfair competition.

Despite French opposition, the European Commission – backed by Germany and Spain – is pushing for the deal’s finalisation by the end of the year.

Should the agreement be ratified despite France’s resistance, however; it would be a blow to the country’s influence within the bloc and could fuel Eurosceptic sentiment on a domestic level.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20250222-macron-promises-france-will-stand-firm-against-eu-mercosur-trade-deal

BurntBroccoli · 26/02/2025 21:05

@Clavinova
"I think the Guardian article was referring to subsidies for 2024, not 2025 (so paid in arrears?) - the article was published in November;

The news comes after Rachel Reeves’s cuts to farming subsidies were larger than expected ...
the chancellor announced a cut of 79% to these payments. Farmers were expecting a more tapered cut: the AIC data shows that, at the top end of the scale, a farmer receiving £62,000 last year was expecting £38,000 this year but would now be getting £7,200.

The end of subsidies was a Tory policy - it was very clearly stated but not a whimper from farmers or NFU

Labour appear to have created an unexpected cliff-edge in England. Agriculture is a devolved matter - what are the other nations doing? "

The agricultural transition was put in place by the Tories and they only guaranteed tapered payments for the length of their parliament. There was absolutely nothing in writing about how much the reduced "subsidy" would be worth in 2025, 2026 and 2027. Shrewd farmers and landowners should have planned on this being Zero.

Farmers do not have to do any environmental management for the 2024 - 2027 payments as they are 'delinked' from what was the Basic Payment. Previously they would have to adhere to Cross Compliance e.g ensuring no NVZ runoff, keeping hedges in good order and animal health requirements. So it's still money for basically owning land.

Payments are paid usually in December for that year.

Clavinova · 26/02/2025 21:22

BurntBroccoli
Payments are paid usually in December for that year

Your previous post implied only one more year of subsidy payments rather than two or three;

'another £7200 next year too which is probably more than the final payment would have been worth'.

MyLimeGuide · 26/02/2025 21:33

WeGotCows · 26/02/2025 10:56

Does a person need to be born into a certain family to have knowledge of farming? Could a person who had knowledge of agriculture not do it just as well if not better?
Current system is a closed shop that benefits only a few, hence why they are crapping themselves at having to part with a tax dime.

It takes years to have the knowledge and expertise to run a farm. It’s like the longest, most underpaid apprenticeship there is.
There are those not born to farming who go to college and take on a council tenancy or a well priced tenancy, but sadly they tend to fail as they don’t have the decades of experience behind them like those born on farms and brought up with that amount of work being the norm.

Typically on a farm there are three generations - the older ones who are slowing down, playing an increasingly lesser role. The middle generation, increasing responsibility, taking the main role, the endless paperwork, the day to day decisions, and the younger, starting very young feeding lambs/calves, helping a parent with some tractor work, being immersed in farm life, and as they grow older learning the ropes, going to do some contracting as older teenagers, maybe working on other farms until they too start to take on more responsibility on their family farm. A farmer is learning right from being a baby.

For others wanting to farm, my son for example, the road is not as easy. He started working on a farm at 15, started driving tractors at 16, found some contracting work locally so gained some experience that way. He may one day become a farm manager, or a dairy manager.

Taking on the full responsibility of a farm is like having a few jobs in one. You’re the zoo keeper, the secretary, the manager, the night shift, the transport manager. In busy times (calving, lambing, silaging, harvest etc) you may work up to 20 hours a day without any extra pay or anyone to come and take over from you. If you want a holiday you need to coordinate it to a degree where you probably won’t relax (more when you’re a livestock farmer, where it literally never stops), in fact many farmers I know don’t have holidays beyond the odd weekend away. Very few people would take this on willingly, and if they did they’d want a better rate of pay than farmers generally get. It can come across as a closed shop because who in their right mind would want that lifestyle for such a low and unpredictable return?

They’re not crapping themselves because they might have to “part with a tax dime” (which is ridiculous as they already pay tax just like everyone else), they’re crapping themselves because their houses are tied up with the business in a way that no other business is. Because they can see how little they are valued, even at a precarious point in history where farming should be one of our top priorities. Because they’re sick and tired of people calling them multi millionaires and wilfully ignoring the hardships they go through. Because they’re sick of idiots begrudging them having anything nice, most of which is necessary farm equipment anyway and not bought for luxury lifestyle reasons.
Because a large portion of the population seemingly doesn’t understand what it takes to produce food, and how little farmers are paid in order to do that.
Because so many people are coming after them to try to control billionaires who find loopholes to avoid paying tax, but don’t care that they’re hurting people who provide our food in the meantime.

Go after the billionaires, stop millionaires from registering their businesses in low tax rate countries, close the loopholes, but leave farmers alone when it’s blatantly obvious that the loudest voices don’t have a clue what the potential consequences are of these actions.

This is a great explanation, it makes sense I doubt it would get through to the greedy LAZY entitled idiots though, I'm talking to you OP. (And Rach from accounts. Bitch)

WeGotCows · 26/02/2025 22:09

OP at this point you’re sounding quite bitter.
Does your car have air con? Or do you have a knackered old 50 yr old car?
Do you have a washing machine or a tub and a mangle? Do you have an oven?

Picking on farmers having air conditioned equipment (you try combine harvesting for hours on end in the blazing sun with no air conditioning and see what fun it is) when nearly everyone else in the country has mod cons at every turn is starting to look like you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

As for why farmers do it when it’s so difficult? Yes there’s the custodians of the land element. There’s an element of family pressure for some. Many have known no other way of life. Some follow in their fathers footsteps and love it, some hate it and sell up.

Sure you have your farmers who aren’t very good at it, because they’re still humans and none of us are perfect, but there is so much good happening that outweighs the bad, but people rarely hear this, or are so taken in by the anti farming message that they don’t have the bandwidth to believe it.

Scrowy · 26/02/2025 22:32

ARealitycheck · 26/02/2025 20:37

I've heard the war cry of woe is me for years from the farming community. I have witnessed first hand their lack of respect for their machinery, as the good old taxpayer will buy them a new one every two or three years. I have watched them claim compensation from the taxpayer for lost livestock (sheep) during a well forecast bad snow.

If it was as genuinely as awful as you are trying to make out, why do they continue to do it? Why do they pay large wages to land agents to ensure not a subsidy is missed? Don't come with the bull of custodians of the land or any of their other heart string tugging nonsense. If they could get away with pouring effluent into a stream that destroys neighbouring farms they would do it. All the while sitting in air conditioned comfort working a joystick in the cab of a tractor. It aint the days of an old grey fergie and a shovel and spade.

Hi - can I have some more information on the taxpayer funded compensation scheme for sheep dying from bad weather please?

I've got Blue Faced Leicesters and we've had a sprinkling of snow the last few days so I'd like to make a claim - do I have to submit the deadstock invoice to anyone.

Also where can I get a taxpayer funded tractor? Is there a form I need to fill in?

TIA

andagainandnotagain · 26/02/2025 22:34

WeGotCows · 26/02/2025 10:56

Does a person need to be born into a certain family to have knowledge of farming? Could a person who had knowledge of agriculture not do it just as well if not better?
Current system is a closed shop that benefits only a few, hence why they are crapping themselves at having to part with a tax dime.

It takes years to have the knowledge and expertise to run a farm. It’s like the longest, most underpaid apprenticeship there is.
There are those not born to farming who go to college and take on a council tenancy or a well priced tenancy, but sadly they tend to fail as they don’t have the decades of experience behind them like those born on farms and brought up with that amount of work being the norm.

Typically on a farm there are three generations - the older ones who are slowing down, playing an increasingly lesser role. The middle generation, increasing responsibility, taking the main role, the endless paperwork, the day to day decisions, and the younger, starting very young feeding lambs/calves, helping a parent with some tractor work, being immersed in farm life, and as they grow older learning the ropes, going to do some contracting as older teenagers, maybe working on other farms until they too start to take on more responsibility on their family farm. A farmer is learning right from being a baby.

For others wanting to farm, my son for example, the road is not as easy. He started working on a farm at 15, started driving tractors at 16, found some contracting work locally so gained some experience that way. He may one day become a farm manager, or a dairy manager.

Taking on the full responsibility of a farm is like having a few jobs in one. You’re the zoo keeper, the secretary, the manager, the night shift, the transport manager. In busy times (calving, lambing, silaging, harvest etc) you may work up to 20 hours a day without any extra pay or anyone to come and take over from you. If you want a holiday you need to coordinate it to a degree where you probably won’t relax (more when you’re a livestock farmer, where it literally never stops), in fact many farmers I know don’t have holidays beyond the odd weekend away. Very few people would take this on willingly, and if they did they’d want a better rate of pay than farmers generally get. It can come across as a closed shop because who in their right mind would want that lifestyle for such a low and unpredictable return?

They’re not crapping themselves because they might have to “part with a tax dime” (which is ridiculous as they already pay tax just like everyone else), they’re crapping themselves because their houses are tied up with the business in a way that no other business is. Because they can see how little they are valued, even at a precarious point in history where farming should be one of our top priorities. Because they’re sick and tired of people calling them multi millionaires and wilfully ignoring the hardships they go through. Because they’re sick of idiots begrudging them having anything nice, most of which is necessary farm equipment anyway and not bought for luxury lifestyle reasons.
Because a large portion of the population seemingly doesn’t understand what it takes to produce food, and how little farmers are paid in order to do that.
Because so many people are coming after them to try to control billionaires who find loopholes to avoid paying tax, but don’t care that they’re hurting people who provide our food in the meantime.

Go after the billionaires, stop millionaires from registering their businesses in low tax rate countries, close the loopholes, but leave farmers alone when it’s blatantly obvious that the loudest voices don’t have a clue what the potential consequences are of these actions.

Well said @WeGotCows . What an interesting viewpoint.

This OP is absolutely unhinged on this topic has has posted rabidly on every thread since the budget, How can anyone get through life so bitter and obsessed by something so out of their control is actually worrying.

Wishing your son luck in his chosen career.

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/02/2025 01:18

Of course you can run a farm after going to agricultural college and getting experience working on farms. The reason people do not tend to enter farming in this way is because you need a lot of money to buy stock and machinery. And nearly always land. Rented farms i.e. tenanted farms are normally sold as soon as the farmer gets too old to farm and there is no family member to pick it up. Landowners do not want to rent tenanted farms in this way as it is not the most profitable use of land.

My family had a tenanted farm, no longer exists though. But certain members of the family still farm as employees.

AlleyRose · 27/02/2025 06:48

Wildflowers99 · 25/02/2025 19:30

Yeah agree OP. Let’s slam them with a massive tax, force them to sell the land, and we can watch it be bought by other multi millionaires for unethical property developing. We can then enjoy a heightened flood risk, food instability, and contribute to climate change as import chlorinated chicken from the States in a bid to plug the gap.

Absolutely this

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 08:24

@feelingalittlehorse Ive known several youngsters who would like to go into farming. As I said before, many farmers and farming families have no idea of the realities of working class life. I used to go out working for my parents to help keep a roof over their head at the age of 8 and look after their other kids - as many still do. Nowadays we then face years of thankless work for low wages which buy nothing and leaves us after 20 years of struggle in private rentals with nothing but the clothes we stand up in - assuming they’ve escaped the ravages of damp and mould. Do you honestly think farming is the only job at the mercy of government decisions? Every job and sector is dependent on political choices! Meanwhile I know of one farming family ‘getting out of farming because it’s so hard’ who are keeping enough land, to do nothing with, but in subsidies it still earns them £4k a month. Most people will never earn £4k a month. That family gazed in amazement when I suggested we couldn’t all just take in stray animals and had to consider time and space restrictions.

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 08:32

The popularity of smallholding da and allotments suggest that many would enjoy a chance to grow food. There’s a very popular horticulture training scheme near me that is not exactly short of applicants - most of whom complain they can’t buy land to start. That’s our issue, and it is strangling all of us whatever walk of life we’re in. We could do with a bit more co-operative action against a series of governments acting under an ideology that has allowed this to develop over decades.

Wildflowers99 · 27/02/2025 08:36

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 08:32

The popularity of smallholding da and allotments suggest that many would enjoy a chance to grow food. There’s a very popular horticulture training scheme near me that is not exactly short of applicants - most of whom complain they can’t buy land to start. That’s our issue, and it is strangling all of us whatever walk of life we’re in. We could do with a bit more co-operative action against a series of governments acting under an ideology that has allowed this to develop over decades.

Given everyone works 38 hour weeks, do you think ‘growing your own food’ in practical terms may be a bit different to ‘aww a simpler life would be nice’ type thoughts?

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 09:01

Wildflowers99 · 27/02/2025 08:36

Given everyone works 38 hour weeks, do you think ‘growing your own food’ in practical terms may be a bit different to ‘aww a simpler life would be nice’ type thoughts?

Not quite sure what this means when I’m pointing at people on allotments and trying to start up on market gardens who work the 38 hours and then go off to grow food. Many of us would love to keep chickens and then have the chance to go on from there maybe - but as pp’s have said, we don’t get that chance. Time was when working people in factories could keep pigs!!

Earlyird12345 · 27/02/2025 09:33

Re the subject of food security. What is it like now, and how would we increase it?

WeGotCows · 27/02/2025 09:52

Earlyird12345 · 27/02/2025 09:33

Re the subject of food security. What is it like now, and how would we increase it?

I think we’re at about 60% right now.
It could be increased but would take time to do so.

If Labour get their way it’s only going to go down, which should worry people.

WeGotCows · 27/02/2025 10:05

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 09:01

Not quite sure what this means when I’m pointing at people on allotments and trying to start up on market gardens who work the 38 hours and then go off to grow food. Many of us would love to keep chickens and then have the chance to go on from there maybe - but as pp’s have said, we don’t get that chance. Time was when working people in factories could keep pigs!!

If you have a garden you can grow food.
Depending on limitations of your neighbourhood you might not be allowed chickens or pigs, mainly because of noise and smells.

I’ve often heard people wanting to buy a small plot of farm land, say half an acre, to live the dream, but then berate greedy farmers for not selling. If farmers sold a plot to everyone who wanted it the land would be far less productive, would eat away at the return a farmer can make, which don’t forget is their livelihood, not just a hobby.
Land does come up for sale but is bought by wealthy horse owners (in my area anyway).

In one local village a group got together to buy a field and turned it into allotments, so maybe that’s an option to look into?

Working people in factories could keep pigs if they had somewhere to keep them, and a holding number and were prepared to do the paperwork necessary. Back when more people kept pigs there weren’t such strict regulations about what they could eat so they’d grow on table scraps and veg peelings, which was the perfect diet for them, except now we buy in meat from all over the world and the risk of foot and mouth is too high to allow any kitchen scraps to go to any livestock, including poultry.

I always think that people should grow food for themselves where they can. It’s good to have those skills.

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 18:01

I always think that people should grow food for themselves where they can. It’s good to have those skills.

Hard agree on that. It keeps skills, gives individuals that little bit of flexibility and independence and keeps them in touch a little with the reality of food and climate - in touch with reality, really. For society again that little bit of redundancy and flexibility can be useful. But that’s exactly what our hardline Neo-imperialist capitalism does not want. It wants high populations with no good choices and no options. It’s been bad for the whole country.

businessflop25 · 27/02/2025 18:42

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/02/2025 01:18

Of course you can run a farm after going to agricultural college and getting experience working on farms. The reason people do not tend to enter farming in this way is because you need a lot of money to buy stock and machinery. And nearly always land. Rented farms i.e. tenanted farms are normally sold as soon as the farmer gets too old to farm and there is no family member to pick it up. Landowners do not want to rent tenanted farms in this way as it is not the most profitable use of land.

My family had a tenanted farm, no longer exists though. But certain members of the family still farm as employees.

You would REALLY struggle to farm successfully straight out of college without any significant experience working day in day out on a farm.

Day to day you might be ok. But when it's 3am, pissing rain and you have a backward calf stuck and you can't get through to the vet.
Or know how to work out what's wrong with an animal and successfully treat it without killing it. Or any of the thousands of problems that crop up all the bloody time.
There is a massive difference learning the theory in a classroom environment or even on work experience where you're not the decision maker. Experience is the best teacher. And it take years to gain that experience. There are no shortcuts, even kids from farming backgrounds still have to gain the experience- they are just fortunate enough to have a head start on those that don't.
I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be a hell of a difficult road to take straight from college

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/02/2025 18:56

businessflop25 · 27/02/2025 18:42

You would REALLY struggle to farm successfully straight out of college without any significant experience working day in day out on a farm.

Day to day you might be ok. But when it's 3am, pissing rain and you have a backward calf stuck and you can't get through to the vet.
Or know how to work out what's wrong with an animal and successfully treat it without killing it. Or any of the thousands of problems that crop up all the bloody time.
There is a massive difference learning the theory in a classroom environment or even on work experience where you're not the decision maker. Experience is the best teacher. And it take years to gain that experience. There are no shortcuts, even kids from farming backgrounds still have to gain the experience- they are just fortunate enough to have a head start on those that don't.
I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be a hell of a difficult road to take straight from college

I did NOT say you would be able to run a farm straight out of college. You get jobs working on a farm first to learn the ropes on the job. But you do not have to be brought up on a farm.

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/02/2025 18:59

@businessflop25 And your example just reminded that my family, like many smaller family farms have changed how they farmed over the years. They took the golden handshake and moved from milk into lamb. They learned how to look after sheep.

ARealitycheck · 27/02/2025 19:15

businessflop25 · 27/02/2025 18:42

You would REALLY struggle to farm successfully straight out of college without any significant experience working day in day out on a farm.

Day to day you might be ok. But when it's 3am, pissing rain and you have a backward calf stuck and you can't get through to the vet.
Or know how to work out what's wrong with an animal and successfully treat it without killing it. Or any of the thousands of problems that crop up all the bloody time.
There is a massive difference learning the theory in a classroom environment or even on work experience where you're not the decision maker. Experience is the best teacher. And it take years to gain that experience. There are no shortcuts, even kids from farming backgrounds still have to gain the experience- they are just fortunate enough to have a head start on those that don't.
I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be a hell of a difficult road to take straight from college

But doesn't that apply to any trade. Somebody just out of tech college wouldn't just start up a builders business. But 10 or 15 years later might. With farming unless you are the offspring of a landowner you have nigh on no chance.

OP posts:
Scrowy · 27/02/2025 20:05

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 08:24

@feelingalittlehorse Ive known several youngsters who would like to go into farming. As I said before, many farmers and farming families have no idea of the realities of working class life. I used to go out working for my parents to help keep a roof over their head at the age of 8 and look after their other kids - as many still do. Nowadays we then face years of thankless work for low wages which buy nothing and leaves us after 20 years of struggle in private rentals with nothing but the clothes we stand up in - assuming they’ve escaped the ravages of damp and mould. Do you honestly think farming is the only job at the mercy of government decisions? Every job and sector is dependent on political choices! Meanwhile I know of one farming family ‘getting out of farming because it’s so hard’ who are keeping enough land, to do nothing with, but in subsidies it still earns them £4k a month. Most people will never earn £4k a month. That family gazed in amazement when I suggested we couldn’t all just take in stray animals and had to consider time and space restrictions.

How much land are they 'doing nothing with' to get £48,000 a year?

Are they getting paid this £4k every month like a wage?

Which subsidy scheme/s are they in?

Do they own or rent?

Do they have any animals still?

How many family members are living off the £4k a month?

Tryingtokeepgoing · 27/02/2025 20:30

WaryCrow · 27/02/2025 08:24

@feelingalittlehorse Ive known several youngsters who would like to go into farming. As I said before, many farmers and farming families have no idea of the realities of working class life. I used to go out working for my parents to help keep a roof over their head at the age of 8 and look after their other kids - as many still do. Nowadays we then face years of thankless work for low wages which buy nothing and leaves us after 20 years of struggle in private rentals with nothing but the clothes we stand up in - assuming they’ve escaped the ravages of damp and mould. Do you honestly think farming is the only job at the mercy of government decisions? Every job and sector is dependent on political choices! Meanwhile I know of one farming family ‘getting out of farming because it’s so hard’ who are keeping enough land, to do nothing with, but in subsidies it still earns them £4k a month. Most people will never earn £4k a month. That family gazed in amazement when I suggested we couldn’t all just take in stray animals and had to consider time and space restrictions.

The basic payment scheme ended in 2023, so no one is getting £4k a month for doing nothing.

They might be eligible for delinked payments in 2025, but they are capped at a little under £8k a year for a farm. They may be participating in ELMS (Environmental Land Management Scheme) which offers payments per hectare for carrying out specific environmental actions, but the payment is broadly to cover the cost of the activity, it’s by no means profit. It also varies from a few pounds to £200 or so a hectare depending on the activity. At the highest rate you’d need about 250 hectares to get to £4k a month, and you’d be spending that and more to achieve the action. I’m not even sure you can claim that much, as it too is likely to be capped.

But, let’s not let facts muddy the thread. The OP certainly has little understanding of running a business, never mind a farm 🤣

Scrowy · 27/02/2025 20:44

Tryingtokeepgoing · 27/02/2025 20:30

The basic payment scheme ended in 2023, so no one is getting £4k a month for doing nothing.

They might be eligible for delinked payments in 2025, but they are capped at a little under £8k a year for a farm. They may be participating in ELMS (Environmental Land Management Scheme) which offers payments per hectare for carrying out specific environmental actions, but the payment is broadly to cover the cost of the activity, it’s by no means profit. It also varies from a few pounds to £200 or so a hectare depending on the activity. At the highest rate you’d need about 250 hectares to get to £4k a month, and you’d be spending that and more to achieve the action. I’m not even sure you can claim that much, as it too is likely to be capped.

But, let’s not let facts muddy the thread. The OP certainly has little understanding of running a business, never mind a farm 🤣

Nooooo I'm sure the poster is going to come back with all the answers as to how to obtain this lovely £4k a month free money for nothing. You sound so cynical!

Mind you I'm still waiting for the answer as to how I get the bad weather compensation for dead sheep from yesterday.