Multi Millionaires Complaining Again

[ARealitycheck]

I see our multi-millionaire landowners had another moan today at a labour party conference. Oh the woes of having to pay half the tax over a period 8 years longer than the rest of the public.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2ljdvqegkeo

Not a good look when the spokesperson is the owner of a farm obviously worth £5m who has been in receipt of circa £90k subsidy money annually in recent years. While standing in front of machinery that is built anywhere but the UK.

Me too.

I live among farmers and most of them are really struggling. I do not recognise the rich stereotype that some people are portraying on here.

The ones I know are beleaguered on so many sides: by the weather, by legislation and regulation, by disease, by high fuel costs, by the ongoing effects of Brexit, by rural theives and vandals, by poor returns, and now the government does this! It’s the nail in the coffin for many of them.

Most farmers here work long hours in all weathers for very little reward as it is. People underestimate what a stressful, perilous, dangerous, and skilled job it is. Many are one or two spoiled harvest away from financial ruin anyway after the weather we have been having of late.. They have to be vets, horticulturalists, machines operators, mechanics, accountants, salespersons , builders,all in one, as well as custodians of our land. There is a reason why poor mh health is rife in farming communities.

I voted for Keir Starmer but now I feel nothing but shame and regret for doing so.

Any profit re-invested in land will have been taxed - there are no capital allowances on land. Any commercial farmer replaces machinery when it is more economic to do so than maintaining the existing machinery, which is often becuase new equipment is more efficent, has higher throughput, uses less fuel. These are all sensible businesses decisions, not decisions to 'not show profit' Any commercial organisation in any sector follows same approach.

And yes, the land doesn't disappear. But, as posted above, which is more likley - it ending up in the hands of enthusiastic, keen, innovative farmers (which, incidently is what many young farmer already are) or in the hands of the ultra rich mega land owners who see it as extension of controlling the food supply chain...? Bearing in mind the anti small business approach of this government, my mony is on the second outcome...

They all used to - famers benefiited from APR (Agricultural Property Relief) and small family businesses from BPR (Business Property Relief). This government has targetted both in a deliberate attempt to drive out small business and ensure that wealth remains in the hands of large corporates and the ultra rich.

They just want to drive out small family farms because they want to build solar farms and houses instead and think that is more productive somehow.
Whereas most of us respect the hard work of generations of family farmers and want them to continue and be subsidised. Whilst at the same time agreeing that the loophole for rich to buy agricultural land and sit on it speculatively does need closing. So does the property companies sitting on land. They are separate issues. And a competent Government would be able to target one without harming the other!

This

“Does a person need to be born into a certain family to have knowledge of farming? Could a person who had knowledge of agriculture not do it just as well if not better?
Current system is a closed shop that benefits only a few, hence why they are crapping themselves at having to part with a tax dime.”

It takes years to have the knowledge and expertise to run a farm. It’s like the longest, most underpaid apprenticeship there is.
There are those not born to farming who go to college and take on a council tenancy or a well priced tenancy, but sadly they tend to fail as they don’t have the decades of experience behind them like those born on farms and brought up with that amount of work being the norm.

Typically on a farm there are three generations - the older ones who are slowing down, playing an increasingly lesser role. The middle generation, increasing responsibility, taking the main role, the endless paperwork, the day to day decisions, and the younger, starting very young feeding lambs/calves, helping a parent with some tractor work, being immersed in farm life, and as they grow older learning the ropes, going to do some contracting as older teenagers, maybe working on other farms until they too start to take on more responsibility on their family farm. A farmer is learning right from being a baby.

For others wanting to farm, my son for example, the road is not as easy. He started working on a farm at 15, started driving tractors at 16, found some contracting work locally so gained some experience that way. He may one day become a farm manager, or a dairy manager.

Taking on the full responsibility of a farm is like having a few jobs in one. You’re the zoo keeper, the secretary, the manager, the night shift, the transport manager. In busy times (calving, lambing, silaging, harvest etc) you may work up to 20 hours a day without any extra pay or anyone to come and take over from you. If you want a holiday you need to coordinate it to a degree where you probably won’t relax (more when you’re a livestock farmer, where it literally never stops), in fact many farmers I know don’t have holidays beyond the odd weekend away. Very few people would take this on willingly, and if they did they’d want a better rate of pay than farmers generally get. It can come across as a closed shop because who in their right mind would want that lifestyle for such a low and unpredictable return?

They’re not crapping themselves because they might have to “part with a tax dime” (which is ridiculous as they already pay tax just like everyone else), they’re crapping themselves because their houses are tied up with the business in a way that no other business is. Because they can see how little they are valued, even at a precarious point in history where farming should be one of our top priorities. Because they’re sick and tired of people calling them multi millionaires and wilfully ignoring the hardships they go through. Because they’re sick of idiots begrudging them having anything nice, most of which is necessary farm equipment anyway and not bought for luxury lifestyle reasons.
Because a large portion of the population seemingly doesn’t understand what it takes to produce food, and how little farmers are paid in order to do that.
Because so many people are coming after them to try to control billionaires who find loopholes to avoid paying tax, but don’t care that they’re hurting people who provide our food in the meantime.

Go after the billionaires, stop millionaires from registering their businesses in low tax rate countries, close the loopholes, but leave farmers alone when it’s blatantly obvious that the loudest voices don’t have a clue what the potential consequences are of these actions.

The farmers should have better business acumen when selling their product to likes of tesco or dairies.

But the fact that Farmers would rather buy a foreign built tractor over a UK one means they are contradicting themselves. You can't cry buy local, support us while doing exactly the opposite. After all to use your own terminology, it's not the publics fault if Britain imports food.

So what if he earned £1,000,000 in 3 years.

I think you are equating farming with a 9-5pm job

I would want to know was this £1 million net or gross Did he really earn £2 million but it became £1million after he has paid for people to work there to look after the cattle, milk the cattle look after the fields they are in etc then pay for a vet and medicine when they get ill and then there is the equipment needed you have to firstly buy, then as it gets older you have to repair it and then save for buying new when it is beyond repair. and after all that he will have paid tax, national insurance and pension plus the hours are far more than any 9-5 sitting in an office protected from the elements type job

So if the million over 3 years was the gross amount the reality was probably more like £300,000 over the 3 years

£333,000 isn’t that much for the hours and the risks involved.

Imagine you have worked all year and your company turned round and said they couldn’t pay you because a cow in the next county had gone down with foot and mouth or it had rained too much or not rained enough.

How much would you want to be paid to be in a job like that

@Yalta

I don't know much about this but if a disease happens like blue tongue, are farmers not paid compensation from the government for loss if they have to be culled? Same with chickens and bird flu.
For loss of crops, I do know they received money from the government flood recovery fund. Do they also insure crops against loss?

I clearly said its was net profit, pre tax...

Farmers received over 1.1 billion, from the tax payer in F&M compensation, the spread of which was helped by farmers carrying on transportation of animals after the notifications to stop.

Normal businesses would be allowed to go bust.

Are you kidding??

You think that any food producer, not just farmers but canned food producers, crisp factories, sausage factories, whatever, have any power to dictate what supermarkets pay them? Honestly if you knew how this worked you would know what a ridiculous thing to say this is!

Going back 20/30 years the supermarket meat buyers had the power to set the price in auction houses for the next few years to come. This is why so many farmers have had to diversify. This is why lots of farms try to set up their own shops so people can buy directly from them. If you own a sausage factory, for example, occasionally a supermarket will tell you that they’re running a promotion on your products - great you think? No. Who foots the bill for any special offer leaflets? You, the producer. Who misses out on whatever pay cut is decided on your products? You. Who has to hire in more staff and be prepared to pay overtime and increased factory running costs to meet the higher demand? You. Who benefits from this? The supermarket.
Farmers get so little return in comparison to the supermarket, and because of the way society has become, they have very little choice in this matter.
Some are lucky enough to have contracts with local butchers, so get a higher return on the animals they sell to them.
Supermarkets are one big scandal waiting to erupt, but as they have food producers in the palm of their hands, ready to crush at a moment’s notice, none of their suppliers can speak out.

Dairy farms have to have a contract with a company who has a say in what they feed their cows, new technology introduced on the farms to meet the criteria of the contract (costing the farmer £££££s). If the contract is dropped (as has happened with several farms recently working for cathedrals city) they have the huge stress of having to find a different contract, but during that time still having to carry out all costly farm duties with no money coming in. They can’t just down tools until the next contract is found.

As for tractors 😂. Iirc there is a factory making three models of new Holland tractor in this country. Farmers buy a tractor that suits their needs, because not all tractors are the same or have the same capabilities.

Honestly you’re trolling us at this point. You don’t have a clue! 😂

That brings up another good point at just how sheltered agriculture can be. You are quite right they often get further government payouts when large scale issues like disease wipe out stock.

Foot & mouth was a great example. Many farmers were over the moon at the decision to cull. The valuations of the animals was way above the going rate, and the support packages to clean and upgrade the farms which they should have been doing anyway, were massive. The biggest shout for culling in Scotland came from the then SNFU president, who just happened to become ridiculously wealthy off the back of it.

Transportation was a big problem, and plenty of time because of a few reasons.

One was farmers having land away from the farm.
Another was for some who had sold animals that had delivery arranged, and a lack of clarity about how this should be managed (as F&M progressed advice was very clear, so not move anything, but at the start there was a large degree of bumbling inefficiency from authorities).
Farmers desperately trying to race ahead of time to keep their animals safe.
It was a truly dreadful time for farmers. Round here all were keen to do the right thing, but in the early days there was so little coherence and unclear advice.

On the subject of them being bailed out and everyone else would be allowed to go bust? Furlough happened during the pandemic.
If any industry was threatened with large scale closure, particularly one which the country relies on, they would be helped.

Did many farmers campaign or shout all over the place when previously UK built machines were moved abroad, mostly for financial reasons? No they, just like the rest of us want the most they can get for the least amount. But don't complain when Joe public buys the cheaper product in the supermarket.

Yes there was concern when the Massey Ferguson factory in Coventry closed down. In fact many farmers won’t buy a MF now because of that.

Most tractor companies are international and have been for a long time. Should farmers go back to horse power to make a stand? That would be interesting!

As for buying cheaper foods in supermarkets? Many do, which has contributed to supermarkets having the power and control that they have.
What is rather shortsighted though is destroying an industry that has the capability of providing food for the nation, especially in a time where things seem unsettled. We are an island. If more countries are having to look after themselves we need to be prepared to be as self sufficient as we can be, not just with food, which obviously is vitally important, but other important commodities that could be disastrous if we couldn’t get them.

Under certain circumstances they sometimes receive compensation but not always. And not necessarily at the true value of the animal.

Take a 6 year old dairy cow for example culled due to TB (which is a massive problem right now)
You would get some compensation for her. But only her dead meat value. You wouldn't get compensated for the 25litres of milk per day you don't get. Or for the loss of the 5 more calf's she would have had.
Even if you could afford to go out and replace her you would still pay nearly double the amount of money you got for her in compensation.
A local farm to me has just lost 5,000 chickens to bird flu.
They haven't and won't receive a penny in compensation as there isn't a scheme in place for bird flu that covers them.
They were organic and free range egg layers.
Not only have the lost the income from the eggs but they have also had to pay £30k to have the dead birds, their eggs, and the incubating eggs disposed of.
They are not insured now as nobody will insure against bird flu in current times.

Well, thats true but in most other sectors, you get nothing at all when things go wrong.

A 6 year old cow is at the end of her life, will not go on to produce 5 more calves... the yield drops, she is shot.

Compensation is paid for healthy birds culled, not for sick ones, highly unlikely all 5000 would be diseased... but yes all would be culled.

@jasflowers

"Compensation is paid for healthy birds culled, not for sick ones, highly unlikely all 5000 would be diseased... but yes all would be culled."

Do they actually test 5000 birds? Seems an impossible task.
I'm sure I read somewhere that chickens can be sold that have tested positive for bird flu in the flock but packets have to be marked?

OP, I genuinely do not know if you are on a bloody wind up or what’s the craic here, but have you lost your mind?

The reality is, people don’t WANT to go into farming. There’s hardly a big queue of school leavers thinking “blow me, you know what would be great- working 24/7 12 months a year in the pissing rain/ wind/ snow/ heat and having every aspect of my job controlled by various government agencies, with absolutely minimum to zero thanks”

A lot of farming families have the issue which is that the generation coming up don’t want to do it. They see the hard work and drudgery and think “nope”. So I’d love to see this army of random people you are suggesting will so keenly take up the reins…..

@jasflowers you clearly know nothing about dairy farming. A six year old cow is by no means at the end of their life!!! Nowhere bloody near!!

And no there is zero compensation for any culled birds culled for bird flu diseased or not.

Other sectors would be insured against losses and are not talking about livestock so are not remotely comparable.

Basically, if you asked me to suggest a group that weren’t pulling their weight and contributing fairly to our society; believe you me, OP, ‘farmers’ would not even be on that radar….

My grandfather had a farm. My father, as the oldest and the biggest and strongest worked on that farm from a very young age.

Whilst at school, he had to write a piece about his family life and he, being keen to stick to task, went through everything he did on that farm. My grandparents were literally pulled in to the school who were so shocked that dad, who was doing his highers as well as exams for Universities like Oxford and was on track to do international sport was undertaking so many jobs on that farm.

Dads response was to shrug and say "but that's farming". So even if they did rake it in, which they don't because well, economics (which you seen to have little understanding of), it certainly wouldn't equate to much when divided by the hour.

As I said in my previous post certainly less than the poster who wittered on about needing financial freedom and holidays and every other damn thing whilst they said that were not willing to work outside term time, in evenings or whenever they wanted to go and have their chakra's realigned by some woo woo twat.

I think the Guardian article was referring to subsidies for 2024, not 2025 (so paid in arrears?) - the article was published in November;

The news comes after Rachel Reeves’s cuts to farming subsidies were larger than expected ...
the chancellor announced a cut of 79% to these payments. Farmers were expecting a more tapered cut: the AIC data shows that, at the top end of the scale, a farmer receiving £62,000 last year was expecting £38,000 this year but would now be getting £7,200.

The end of subsidies was a Tory policy - it was very clearly stated but not a whimper from farmers or NFU

Labour appear to have created an unexpected cliff-edge in England. Agriculture is a devolved matter - what are the other nations doing?

I've heard the war cry of woe is me for years from the farming community. I have witnessed first hand their lack of respect for their machinery, as the good old taxpayer will buy them a new one every two or three years. I have watched them claim compensation from the taxpayer for lost livestock (sheep) during a well forecast bad snow.

If it was as genuinely as awful as you are trying to make out, why do they continue to do it? Why do they pay large wages to land agents to ensure not a subsidy is missed? Don't come with the bull of custodians of the land or any of their other heart string tugging nonsense. If they could get away with pouring effluent into a stream that destroys neighbouring farms they would do it. All the while sitting in air conditioned comfort working a joystick in the cab of a tractor. It aint the days of an old grey fergie and a shovel and spade.