First dates... splitting the bill.

[NovemberMorn]

Is it unreasonable to expect the male to pay the full bill on a first date dining out?
I watch the programme 'First Dates' on TV, and it amazes me how, in this day and age, so many women either don't offer to split the food bill, or mutter something half-heartedly as the man gets his cc out, obviously not expecting to pay a penny.

Again why is the onus on the woman? It’s not creating awkwardness to insist on splitting. And if the man feels awkward that’s his issue tk deal with not for a woman to resolve.

And why is it on the woman to make things clear from the start?

Seems like you’re saying whatever the man thinks, it’s all the woman’s responsibility to deal with his feelings.

Exactly this. Women whose value and self worth aren’t tied to their employment always seem to draw ire.

@unlikelywitch But we prefer a man whose value and self worth is?

Agree with this.

There's no reason why "respect for traditional values" should automatically trump respect for modern values / values that have kept pace with modern society.

To some other PPs' points about women bearing a greater cost of primping and preening (I believe blow drys, fake tans, waxes were all mentioned): by all means do whatever you want to do and whatever makes you feel wonderful, but don't pretend that it is a cost you are forced to bear. Many of us have decided that is not the route we want to go down and were still successful daters.

Yeah I really don't agree that a woman should have to state her intention to go halves to save the man's awkwardness later. But I can accept that a man who would feel awkward in such a situation just probably wouldn't be the man for me. And that other people are different.
But for me it 'insisting' on paying wouldn't feel generous, it would feel like a presumptuous power play. It would be a minor indicator of a relationship I wouldn't want, where tradition was more important than common sense and fairness, and where a man's sense of worth was tied to 'looking after' a woman, whether she wanted it or not.

Not for me!

I pay my part, not thru any "modern woman" stance but simply because men expect more if they pay for me.
"I'll pay" comes back to haunt me.
At best it means they want a 2nd date when I will pay;
at worst ... well we all know what the worst case scenario is...

Good for you! Surely true feminism is about women doing whatever they want/are able to? If they want to work, great! If they can stay at home, also great!

Like I said upthread, some people still like to observe a traditional family set up. This doesn't mean anyone is being 'kept' or 'letting the side down' or 'not wanting to be independent' it just means they are doing what works for them as a partnership - and what others think of that is, frankly, neither here nor there 🤷‍♀️

Why should the woman make it clear she wants to go halves from the start!? Because a man trying to impress a woman on a date (which is usually the point!) WOULD want to pay for her. This, in my view, is still the vast majority of men (and by men, I mean real men, not dick heads!). So any woman who doesn't want this, should say so from the outset, otherwise it will just be a given.

It's not about 'dealing with a man's feelings', it's about accepting that some men ARE still traditional (some may say 'old fashioned', sure) when it comes to dating and that women could just go with it if they want, without feeling they need to 'prove a point'.

Of course, you will want to make a good impression on the person you're on a date with - especially if you feel the spark with them and hope that it develops; but this all sounds very one-sided.

Why is it up to the man to impress the woman, but not on her to impress him? It's not a job interview!

@Jumpingthruhoops I hope you allow your husbands the same freedom of choice to work or not? 😀

You haven't read my comment properly at all. What I'm saying is, if the woman really wants to pay, she should make this clear from the outset. However, if she doesn't do this and, at the end of the meal, he insists on paying, the woman shouldn't then create awkwardness by insisting she pays half. It's about nuance

What a load of rubbish, a woman wouldn't be expected to do this when out for dinner with anyone else!

If you're doing lots of dating, it makes perfect sense to go halves on the first date. Probably best to go for a few drinks/coffees anyway, rather than a meal and just buy a round each

Can you point to where I said that? Who is we? I want women to do whatever feels right for them. You seem very irked that women have different opinions and make different choices to yours.

@unlikelywitch First date - spilt the bill or not? What is your take? I can guess...
Feminism isn't about "women doing whatever they want" (when it suits them).

Again it is putting the onus on the woman to either go along with what the man wants to state upfront.

Who on earth states a date saying they will be going halves on the bill? Thats a pretty strange way to start off a conversation with a relative stranger.

And why is it only the man who is supposed to ‘impress’? And that to impress it involves his wallet?

AaI hate this idea men try and impress women by paying. It’s not the 1950’s - people don’t need to impress each other on dates, they both need to be real and s
true to themselves.

Any discussion of the bill prior to it arriving crass imo.

It’s not a big deal. The bill arrives, the man picks it up, the women offers to contribute and usually the man says ‘no let me’ - no fuss, no drama, no ‘proving a point’, no awkwardness, no need to overthink a simple action.

Bitter lemon your favourite beverage?

Well of course I won't remain married forever, nobody will, death and divorce do exist. However, my marriage is rock solid and in the highly unlikely event of divorce, I am still at no risk of financial ruin. Like I said, don't assume.

Agreed!

Why are you obsessed with other peoples relationships, specifically women who don't have to work, it's quite creepy.

Oh OK then 🙄

@LaceApplique Do you not understand how your choice of being the default SAHP because you're a woman (especially long-term/permanently) impacts on us a collective? I don't just mean your personal choice, of course.
Gender pay gaps, the way working women are perceived by potential employers etc...?
Anyway, I'm off to work 😀

I haven’t once mentioned feminism - I’ve simply put forward my opinions. You seem incapable of arguing your point. Perhaps you’re not as happy and secure in your own choices as you’d like to make it seem.

Read my first post on the thread to get the answer to your question.

Split, and be responsible for your own transport. Why would you put yourself in a position to 'owe' anything to a person you have literally just met or reliant on them for a safe trip home. Just not sensible. And longer term- I'd expect expenses to be split overall (not to the penny every time, but efrort and cost should balance out), if you don't want to be treated like a second class citizen or dependent then don't act like one.

Very mature response - eye rolling obviously makes your made up unwritten rule true then well done you 👏👏

@LaceApplique You're such a feminist you call other posters on here "a bunch of anonymous random bitches."
I'm not engaging with you.
I feel for your husband.

Read other posts, she is positively miserable and won't be satisfied until everyone is as miserable as she is. Nobody gets this worked up about other people's relationships without reason. Using the guise of 'feminism' when she openly admits to taking away women's choices and calls them 'lap dogs' for not working looks a lot like internalised misogyny to me and it isn't fooling anyone on here.