First dates... splitting the bill.

[NovemberMorn]

Is it unreasonable to expect the male to pay the full bill on a first date dining out?
I watch the programme 'First Dates' on TV, and it amazes me how, in this day and age, so many women either don't offer to split the food bill, or mutter something half-heartedly as the man gets his cc out, obviously not expecting to pay a penny.

@LaceApplique @gannett has summed it up wonderfully succinctly.
As I've said, my personal view is that being a long-term SAHM whilst your husband is the sole earner doesn't lend itself to redressing the (im)balance of inequality.
Society has come some way - for example my husband and I shared parental leave of our baby before I returned to work as the higher earner - but not far enough.
And how many women in reality actually take up the offer of shared parental leave as an example? Why is this?

I wouldn’t date a man who earned substantially less than me. Been there, done that and it wasn’t pleasant. In my experience, women tend to be the primary care giver, administrator, organiser, and generally bear the brunt of the emotional labour that comes with being in a relationship. I’m not doing all of that and having the pressure of being the breadwinner.

@unlikelywitch So you want to date someone who earns substantially more than you?
I'm married and chose a husband who didn't have those expectations of me because I wouldn't have put up with it. We both work and make equal financial contributions to the household.

'it's not actually a niche choice that couples opt into.' What do you mean by this? Can you elaborate.

'"natural" (implying that those who don't wish to fulfil them are deviant).'

I think we are way passed thinking working women are deviant considering the majority of mothers work. If anything I would go as far to say SAHM and housewives are looked down upon by modern standards, it's seen as old fashioned and oppressive, you have literally said 'Women still have to fight to break out of it, both in their personal lives and on a political level.' Why should women be told they have fight out of something they enjoy. I love not working, you'd have to fight me to go back!

It is so ironic that the self proclaimed feminists are more often than not the main culprits responsible for telling women how they should think or behave and if it doesn't fit into their idea of what an upstanding feminist should look like (namely themselves) then they are disregarded as harbouring internal misogyny.

I've attached a link to a recent study that demonstrates the feelings of women in relation to work and children. The results are very interesting and demonstrate that women don't fit into a box and nor should they.

Civitas: Institute for the Study of Civil Society UPDATED: Mothers’ preferences over childcare and work. Why won’t anyone listen to the 3 million mums?

@everychildmatters nope. Slightly less, same or more is fine. Substantially less is not.

'being a long-term SAHM whilst your husband is the sole earner doesn't lend itself to redressing the (im)balance of inequality.' Inequality in which area? Why should women who are happy to be homemakers be responsible for readdressing the perceived imbalances other women have pushed upon them.

Why should I, as someone who doesn't work, force myself into the work place to appease a handful of imaginary lunatics who are potentially bothered about my status because the collective are allegedly affected. It's an absurd notion. I also think it is odd to be focusing on the family decisions of individuals you will never meet in your life.

'And how many women in reality actually take up the offer of shared parental leave as an example? Why is this?' Mainly because they don't want to. There is thread after thread on here about new mums not wanting to go back to work but having no choice.

Civitas: Institute for the Study of Civil Society UPDATED: Mothers’ preferences over childcare and work. Why won’t anyone listen to the 3 million mums?

@LaceApplique Why shouldn't you work?

Because I don't have to.

Why should I work? To appease women shaking their fists at the man? I think the opinions of my family who benefit enormously from my stay at home status are more important.

Living a life that’s best for you and your family instead of propping up the capitalist hellscape we currently find ourselves in? How selfish!!

@LaceApplique Why should your husband?

But, but, you have to be a cog in the corporate machine to be respected (by women) or you're not a feminist and you do not believe in equal rights!

Nobody judges women as much as other women.

@LaceApplique Yes, equality is staying at home and expecting your husband to be the sole earner.
Doesn't sound equal to me, personally speaking.
Each to their own.

Because he loves his job and he loves being able to provide for his family. Mind blowing, I'm sure.

@LaceApplique And we return to the misogyny of men being the sole provider. Can't women love their jobs then? News to me. I absolutely love mine!!! And I also like providing for my family in just the same way as my husband does.

I think the unwritten rule is, if the guy really likes the girl, and he's confident she feels the same, he pays. However, if the date ends up firmly in the friendzone, then it's split 50/50.
If, in any event, the woman wants to go halves, she should make that clear at the start of the date. But if it gets to the end of the meal and he really wants to foot the whole bill, it's kinda bad manners for the woman to then insist on paying half.

It's important to acknowledge that while, yes, society has changed, some people do still like to uphold traditional values and this should be respected.

@Jumpingthruhoops I wouldn't date, or indeed marry, a man who insisted on paying for me despite my wish to pay halves.
That would be disrespecting my choice, no?

Equal in what though? You keep saying 'equality' that ever broad term but you never get down to specifics.

If your idea of an equal relationship is one that relies on equal financial contribution it sounds very transactional.

My husband and I contribute equally but differently to the relationship. I suppose the idea of two people bringing their individual strengths to the table in order to compliment one another is an alien concept to you, otherwise you wouldn't be so hung up on money.

Talk about a Red Herring. Of course women can love their jobs. What has my husband loving his job got to do with women not being able to love their jobs. How do you even come up with that connection !?

Well that's great for you. I love not working and providing for my family in ways that are different or the same as my husband.

@LaceApplique That's all well and good but as I've said before, a risky strategy for the SAHP. Especially one who is out of work for many years.
Returning to the original question out of interest...split the bill on a first date?

When I started going out with my husband I was insistent on going halves. I really couldn't have dealt with letting a man pay for me. I may have felt differently if the man was (i) a lot richer than me and (ii) specifically wanted to go somewhere I couldn't otherwise afford.

But otherwise, if it was just a normal bar or restaurant, and we earned similarly - I simply can't understand why a man should be expected to pay. It's unequal, regressive amd makes no sense, in my opinion.

It didn't put my husband off me. And we still split everything now. All wages into the joint bank account. Equal spending money.

So we have arrived at the faux concern stage because I haven't allowed you to clobber me with the inequality argument.

There is no risk in my case. Don't assume.

You haven't read my comment properly at all. What I'm saying is, if the woman really wants to pay, she should make this clear from the outset. However, if she doesn't do this and, at the end of the meal, he insists on paying, the woman shouldn't then create awkwardness by insisting she pays half. It's about nuance.

@Jumpingthruhoops The huge red flag for me would be his insistence. Slippery slope...what else is he going to insist upon if I say no?

Completely disagree this is any sort of ‘unwritten rule’

Why on earth would a woman need to make clear after of date that she wants the bill split? And it’s absolutely not bad manners to want to split when the bill arrives.

This might be what you think is acceptable but it’s certainly not standard

@LaceApplique Of course not. You will be married forever without a shadow of a doubt.