Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

Can you not imagine the issues that will arise when women who look like men, pass as men, have facial hair and big muscles, are using womens bathrooms.

I don't disagree that some people will feel uncomfortable at non-passing transwomen, and transwomen who have not had surgery, in female only spaces.

I do think forcing those people into male only spaces puts them at risk.

But putting transmen like the person in this picture, into female only spaces, is also going to cause a problem! You may feel like the person in this image is an outlier, but they are not - transmen tend to 'pass' far far more easily and more often.

The solution is not going to be insisting that they use the bathroom for their birth gender is it. That isn't going to work, regardless of what you think about transgender.

How tall is she ?

Because many of the transmen are much shorter and slighter than their selfies would imply

The solution is not going to be insisting that they use the bathroom for their birth gender is it. That isn't going to work, regardless of what you think about transgender.

So again, as this gotcha has been attempted multiple times and hasn't got any better, what you're saying is that all masculine looking women should avoid using the ladies?

Personally, it's up to men to object to women in their spaces. I don't think they should use them but it's not my issue.

What I'm saying is that actual men, whatever stage they are of their "transition" are not welcome in female spaces.

When law and policy revert back to the norm of women's spaces being strictly female-only again, there will be a significant deterrent effect upon males who desire to be women even trying to use women's spaces.

If males know they can be investigated and penalized for this disregard of women's boundaries, they'll be much less likely to even try, and as a consequence, there will be much less suspicion overall of there being potential female impersonators trying to sneak into women's spaces.

At this point, the general assumption when seeing a hirsute women - like the one in the photo you attached - in a female-only space will be that she's female.

Very well said.

Keep all men out of womens spaces and men can fight their own battles.

If Michael passes then Michael can use the men's. If a man realises that Michael is actually female and objects then Michael can be asked to leave. But as Michael passes then that won't happen will it? What with all that facial hair and big muscles.

If Michael wants to use the women's space then Michael is entitled to do so as a female person. Michael can expect to be challenged as their appearance has been changed by the use of testosterone, but Michael can explain this.

Or Michael can campaign for, and use, a third space. GC women are generally very supportive of such spaces which can be used by anyone who isn't comfortable using the space designated for their sex.

What isn't acceptable is for Michael to act as a Trojan horse for men who want to get into women's spaces, because lets face it, this is what it's all about. Sad for Michael if they haven't worked out by now that the only time TRAs give a shit about transmen is when they need a useful idiot.

There is no 'gotcha' - I think there should be a different kind of provision, trans spaces or do away with male/female multi-cubicle toilets entirely and have single user facilities that anyone can use, that does not put anyone in contact with anyone else.

But that is by the by, and isn't what is happening now.

I don't think 'all masculine looking women should avoid using the ladies' however as someone related to a masculine looking woman, I can tell you, they already are as a direct result of being accosted/attacked (yes!) by women who have jumped to conclusions.

@eatfigs "At this point, the general assumption when seeing a hirsute women - like the one in the photo you attached - in a female-only space will be that she's female."

Hahahahaha. Hahaha. No. It really really will not be.

No one is putting her in the women's toilets though, it's up to her where she goes.

It's males in women's single sex spaces that risks harm to women. As the TRAs say no one is doing genital inspections.

She is being used to support the erosion of female boundaries. That's not on really.

@WiddlinDiddlin why do you believe that?

Have you met women? THere will be no assumption, there will be at best, horrified stares, posting on a forum about it, and at worst, screaming abuse, possibly physical abuse (imagine this where the woman who is faced with what she thinks is a man, and she's carrying a gun... and the person she thinks might be a man may well also be... )

Remember, this thread is discussing what is going on in the US, where Trump is banning people from using the bathroom that matches their gender identity, forcing people to use the one that fits the gender they were born with.

So no, if there is a ban, then there isn't a choice and someone discovered to be using the wrong bathroom might well be at risk!

Floor to ceiling lockable toilets are a health risk to many people. They should not be the only alternative.

Separate spaces? Sure. But not turning all spaces into gender neutral. And by the way, the public don’t like gender neutral spaces much either.

Here is the latest YouGov tracker information on whether people want gender neutral toilets or separate single sex toilets:

A new poll reveals that support for mixed-sex toilets is at its lowest level in five years.
Do you think public spaces should have separate toilets for men and women, gender neutral toilets, or both?

Separate toilets for men and women. 59%
Gender neutral toilets as well as separate toilets for men and women. 32%
Gender neutral toilets only. 5%
None of the above. 1%
Don't know. 3%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

And Sex Matters commentary on it.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/support-for-gender-neutral-toilets-falls/

Why should the wishes about single sex provision of 99% of the population be ignored to make less than 1% happy with their personal choices?

This is emotive hyperbole.

We have already been told by female people who have taken testosterone that they seek alternative solutions. They plan carefully so that they use spaces that they know fit their needs.

This really is the case.

These female people are being leveraged to convince others that some male people should have access to female single sex provisions.

It doesn't really matter that some women look more masculine that is always the case. Otherwise where do you draw the line? Facilities should be defined by sex. Wearing a cow boy hat and going to the gym doesn't stop you having XX chromosomes.

If Michael wants to use the women's space then Michael is entitled to do so as a female person. Michael can expect to be challenged as their appearance has been changed by the use of testosterone, but Michael can explain this.

Or Michael can campaign for, and use, a third space. GC women are generally very supportive of such spaces which can be used by anyone who isn't comfortable using the space designated for their sex.

What isn't acceptable is for Michael to act as a Trojan horse for men who want to get into women's spaces, because let's face it, this is what it's all about. Sad for Michael if they haven't worked out by now that the only time TRAs give a shit about transmen is when they need a useful idiot.

This.

OP, are you for real or are you a robot? Making no sense to me.

Trump is banning people from using the bathroom that matches their gender identity, forcing people to use the one that fits the gender they were born with.

Why do you think they should be able to use opposite sex spaces? By all means, campaign for third spaces, for trans people. You can share with them if you like. You don't get to consent on the removal of my privacy and dignity.

This is great news for society 📈

Well that's a rock and a hard place then. I can't see that any male person in the woman's toilets is safe from your gun toting, screaming women. So you presumably think transwomen need to stay out as well for their own safety?

These violent, screaming women will have committed a crime against a transman in the women's toilets. We're told that there's no need to worry about men attacking women or committing sexual acts in the toilet because they will have committed a crime and will be dealt with accordingly. The same will be the case here.

Short, I think. Other pictures show this transman as looking like a butch lesbian. Their thighs and hips look female. It’s only the facial hair that makes you look twice.

A photo is very different from real life. I once played a boy in a school play when I was around 15 or so. In the publicity photos, I surprised myself by how much I looked like a boy, with my short hair styled in a masculine way, no make up and an in-character pose. However, even if I’d walked out in public still in costume as a boy, the vast majority of people would have seen me for the girl I was despite my hair, my clothes and my slim/small busted figure. Real life isn’t a photo, and most people can tell, even if it takes them a few seconds.

Ha ha.

Have we met women?

Ha ha. Are you on glue?

When you understand that the only commonality of the group who have gender identities is a philosophical belief, their own personal belief about themselves, that is not supported by a biological finding, it puts things into perspective. And again, remember there are over 130+ genders including gender fluid identity.

What other group’s philosophical belief over rides safeguarding provisions needed to protect children and female people this way?

And why should the onus be on female people to be put at future risk to accommodate this group’s philosophical beliefs?

Indeed ditalini, the coherence of the arguments just keep crumbling.

Female people are attacking others in toilets, with guns even, yet apparently it is a place of safety for this special group of male people that they should expect to have access.

I don't disagree that some people will feel uncomfortable at non-passing transwomen, and transwomen who have not had surgery, in female only spaces.

How very big of you to understand that some women will feel uncomfortable with males in their spaces. It goes way beyond mere discomfort. As for the non passing bit of your argument - there is no directive for transwomen to pass, they do not have to do anything expect chant the magic mantra declaring they are a woman. So what is to stop every Tom, Dick and Harry from doing the same? How does that work then for the TW who you claim will be at risk sharing spaces with men?

I do think forcing those people into male only spaces puts them at risk.

Then the onus is on the TW to sort out the problem with those of their own sex or to campaign for separate, additional spaces. Stop using women as human shields for men or validation tools for their womanly feelings.

A separate additional mixed/gender neutral space call it what you like you could use it too to ensure that TW get the validation they require, just leave the rest of us women alone in our single sex spaces free of all males however they claim to identify.

I do think forcing those people into male only spaces puts them at risk.

This keeps coming up, but I have not seen any evidence to back it up.
Transmen seem happy enough to use male toilets, Men don't seem to bother them, so why do transwomen have such an issue?