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Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

859 replies

ThisPinkWyvern · 22/02/2025 02:04

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2025 11:25

Hmm. I do think that's a bit shaky, particularly as you went as far as referring to me and helpfully linked the thread you had a beef with. That, technically, is sailing close to the edge of MN guidelines.

It wasn't @Helleofabore who brought up the thread. It was quite obviously that one being mentioned.

spannasaurus · 23/02/2025 11:25

I am female but I have no idea if my inner perception of my sex is the same as other females because I cannot compare my inner perceptions to other people's.

Savemefromwetdog · 23/02/2025 11:25

Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

This is exactly what I think many of them have, yes. I also wish someone would look closer into the links between ND young people being captured into the ideology - many young individuals with ASD are convinced by the movement that feeling different is due to being trans and in the wrong body, rather than features of ASD itself.

lifeturnsonadime · 23/02/2025 11:26

Apennyforapound · 23/02/2025 11:21

Agreed, they obviously do not have the lived experience, as they're biologically a different sex. They feel like they should be the opposite sex in their mind, and cannot change their sex. Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

I can't answer for the person you are asking but I can tell you that I think that it is either a mental health disorder which should be treated accordingly rather than affirmed, or, it's a fetish.

Either way men are never women and have no business in being in single sex spaces for women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2025 11:28

I am female but I have no idea if my inner perception of my sex is the same as other females because I cannot compare my inner perceptions to other people's.

If there is such thing as a female perception of sex though, it's vastly more likely you would have it, as an actual female person, than a man.

dapsnotplimsolls · 23/02/2025 11:30

Apennyforapound · 23/02/2025 11:21

Agreed, they obviously do not have the lived experience, as they're biologically a different sex. They feel like they should be the opposite sex in their mind, and cannot change their sex. Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

What's the answer? An awful lot of therapy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2025 11:31

Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

That's for them to decide, as long as it doesn't include using female only spaces as a male.

spannasaurus · 23/02/2025 11:35

Even the charity Mermaids has now stopped saying trans people are born in the wrong body.

TheKeatingFive · 23/02/2025 11:35

Apennyforapound · 23/02/2025 11:21

Agreed, they obviously do not have the lived experience, as they're biologically a different sex. They feel like they should be the opposite sex in their mind, and cannot change their sex. Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

The first step is to speak truth to them and stop pandering to delusions.

You are born one sex or the other. You can't change that. You've no idea what it is to be the other sex as you've never experienced that. And if, after that, they still have trouble accepting who they are then therapy would be the next step, yes.

Ladamesansmerci · 23/02/2025 11:39

There will always be people with gender dysphoria who feel repulsed by their own body. This is a recognised illness. Those people deserve compassion and support.

But that does not change your biological sex, which is driven by your external biological characteristics, chromosomes, internal organs, and hormones. That is all 'male' or 'female' mean. And before anyone makes the argument, not having children or not having periods does not make you less of a woman. Not having a period despite having a uterus and therefore needing to undergo investigations why is still an experience unique to women. Deciding not to carry a child, or being unable to even though you want to, is still unique to women.

Everything else gender, which is a social construct. But part of being a woman is also being socialised as a woman. You cannot possibly know what this is like unless you are born a woman. Despite how you 'feel' if you are a biological man, you will have been socialised according to your sex.

I'm not sure what it means when people say they 'feel like a woman'. I'm a woman, and I just feel like myself. Outside of my sex characteristics, 'woman' is just a set of things society presumes me to be. My clothes, hair, and interests do not make me a woman, my biology does. Arguably, my experiences under patriarchy also form my status as 'woman' as sex based discrimination is something I experience purely due to my biology.

Everyone is free to dress and present how they please. I'd love to live in a world where men can wear what they like without being bullied and attacked, and where women don't feel wrong because they aren't 'feminine'. But changing your clothes or having surgery does not change your sex, and it does not change how you've been socialised. It does not give people the right to access single sex spaces.

On a side note, Trump is a fascist piece of shit.

sashh · 23/02/2025 11:41

I'll save y sympathy for the millions of women adversely effected by these few thousands of mentally ill people.

Helleofabore · 23/02/2025 11:47

Savemefromwetdog · 23/02/2025 11:25

Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

This is exactly what I think many of them have, yes. I also wish someone would look closer into the links between ND young people being captured into the ideology - many young individuals with ASD are convinced by the movement that feeling different is due to being trans and in the wrong body, rather than features of ASD itself.

There are now numerous reports and reviews that have identified a link. The work has been done already as it was noted quite early on. And I doubt that there are many on this thread who won't agree with you about that connection.

However, the issue is that the support groups who have a lot of influence around the treatments don't want this to be focused on.

spannasaurus · 23/02/2025 11:48

Some non disabled people believe that they were born in the wrong bodies and feel like imposters in their fully working bodies because they identify as disabled. People have sought amputations of healthy limbs to try and make their body resemble their disabled identity.

Most people don't believe that we should offer limb amputations to this group of people so why do some people believe we should be offering breast amputations to young women who identify as men.

Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement
Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement
Ladamesansmerci · 23/02/2025 11:49

H112 · 23/02/2025 10:20

Why do you care about being a women or what it means be a woman though?? I'm a cisgender woman and couldn't give a sht who called themselves one. It doesn't effect anything or any of our rights.

So you'd be happy sharing a changing room with any random man who says 'oh actually today I feel like a woman?'

You'd be happy for men to identity their way into a domestic abuse shelter for women?

You'd be happy to end up on a single sex mental health ward at your most vulnerable, and suddenly men can say they're women and be admitted there?

Mightymoog · 23/02/2025 11:51

user1471523931 · 22/02/2025 17:47

Sigh! Has anyone been attacked or abused by a trans woman? So much anger on this thread. If you really want women to feel safe and keep their freedoms, way of life and dignity maybe energy should be put into protesting about the actions of Trump and his administration towards women - sacking of high profile women, abortion rights, diversity etc. we don’t want that here! He is not acting to benefit women.

Sigh,
has anyone been attacked or abused by a man

That's the question you meant: "trans women" are men. Not women, men.
Do you really believe otherwise? if so, you need help ( or to stop reading whatever drivel has put this into your head)

NewNeolithic · 23/02/2025 11:54

The fact that 95% of responses to the AIBU think the OP is BU has cheered me up no end. What a sensible lot MNers are.

'Gender Critical Movement' ffs.

Kittygolightlyy · 23/02/2025 12:15

NewNeolithic · 23/02/2025 11:54

The fact that 95% of responses to the AIBU think the OP is BU has cheered me up no end. What a sensible lot MNers are.

'Gender Critical Movement' ffs.

😂 that pesky vast majority of the worlds’ population who understand biological reality..

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 23/02/2025 12:15

BMW6 · 23/02/2025 11:10

At the end of all of this, they have a body that is as close as possible to the sex they should have been born as.

As close as possible yes - but it still isn't a change of sex is it. All the changes are only cosmetic. Superficial.

A Transman will never have a Prostate, produce semen, because they cant change their Y chromosomes to X.

A Transwoman will never have ovaries, a Uterus, menstruate, because they can't change an X chromosome to Y.

Neither can go back in time to live from birth in their changed sex even if the required chromosome change were possible. So they will never have the lived experience of being the sex they think they would rather have been born.

Faking it isn't making it.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I think you have some of this the wrong way round.

Female is XX
Male is XY

Yes, I know all about DSDs, however, they are differences or disorders of sexual development, where the normal pathway has gone wrong

A transman can't become biologically male, because they cannot change their second X chromosome into a Y chromosome.

A transwoman can't become biologically female, because they cannot change their Y chromosome into a second X chromosome.

Now, I'm just generally replying to the thread.

XX female, XY male is why red colourblindness is so much more prevalent in males (1 in 50) than in females (1 in 200).

The main gene for the red cones (light receptors on the back of the eye that can see red light) is located on the X chromosome.

Women have two copies of this gene, one on each of their X chromosomes. If they have one 'dodgy' copy of the gene, their second copy allows them to still make the red sensing cells, and they can see red.

If a woman has two 'dodgy' versions of the gene, she will be red colourblind. This is much less likely to happen, and would require to have a red colourblind father, and either a red colourblind mother, or a mother who was a carrier of red colourblindness.

HOWEVER,

Males only have one copy of the X chromosome. Therefore, if they have one 'dodgy' copy of the gene, they do NOT have a spare copy, because the Y chromosome is small and does not contain a copy of the gene. Therefore, they only need to have one parent who passes on the 'dodgy' gene(their mother).

Interestingly, a father can never pass his colourblindness onto his son, because he only passes on his Y chromosome to his son.
A colourblind father can pass his colourblindness on to his grandson, via his daughter being a carrier.

This was my situation. There was a 50:50 chance that my son would be red colourblind. My father is red colourblind, therefore I must have recieved his 'dodgy-gene X' from him, and a second, 'normal-gene X' from my mother, which allowed me to see red.

When it came to having my son, he recieved his Y chromosome from my DH, and an X from me. 50:50 whether it was the dodgy or normal version.

For my DD, it's 50:50 whether she is a carrier, or not.

So actually,

Being female or male does affect people, even in ways you might not have thought of.

(The other types of colourblindness are not sex linked, the genes for seeing green and blue are not on the sex chromosomes).

sashh · 23/02/2025 12:21

H112 · 23/02/2025 10:20

Why do you care about being a women or what it means be a woman though?? I'm a cisgender woman and couldn't give a sht who called themselves one. It doesn't effect anything or any of our rights.

I honestly hope you never need the services of a rape crisis centre, when a man in a dress insists on being in your 'single sex' counselling.

I hope you are never imprisoned and locked into a small room with a totally intact male who has only identified as a woman since his rape conviction.

You are obviously beyond college age so any sports scholarship you might have obtained has not gone to a man.

Or like Reilly Gains and her team be forced to be naked in front of a 6 ft naked man who is clearly aroused by the naked women around him.

I hope you never need intimate personal care from someone the same sex.

I hope you never have to share a hospital ward / room with a biological male.

I hope you are never raped or attacked by a male who claims to be female because these are all things happening to women and girls and you are supporting it.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 23/02/2025 12:25

GoingOnBehindTheScenes · 23/02/2025 11:06

when it comes to spotting posters i can never tell

No. I’m sure you don’t have to 🫢

I have no idea what this means 😳

Helleofabore · 23/02/2025 12:31

I think that the latest Yougov poll puts the discussion about this so called ‘gender critical movement’ into perspective.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

I think that if anyone actually believes that questioning gender identity and accommodations made by law and policy is 'far right' and 'Trump supporter' ... they really need to read this poll.

A majority of Labour voters are quite close to alignment with Tory voters on these issues as a general statement. We have been saying all along that this is not a left - right wing issue. This is an issue of interest across the political spectrum.

Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement
Helleofabore · 23/02/2025 12:37

And yes, this movement that the OP refers to does incorporate the majority of the world’s population.

Here are more yougov polls.

Every two years more and more of the population of the UK understand exactly what it now means to allow any male to access female single sex provisions.

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 27 [16] 11% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 16%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 15%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 42 [34] 27%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 56%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 47 [39] 31%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 16%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 47%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 20%
Don't know 26 [25] 22%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 4%

No question making it clear that when a male person has or has not had surgery was asked in 2018, but here is how this too has changed since 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms?
2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 6%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 16%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?

Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 17%
Don't know 27 [25] 16%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Here is the data behind the 2018

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

2020

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

2022

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

2024

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

Here is the latest YouGov tracker information on whether people want gender neutral toilets or separate single sex toilets:

A new poll reveals that support for mixed-sex toilets is at its lowest level in five years.

Do you think public spaces should have separate toilets for men and women, gender neutral toilets, or both?

Separate toilets for men and women. 59%
Gender neutral toilets as well as separate toilets for men and women. 32%
Gender neutral toilets only. 5%
None of the above. 1%
Don't know. 3%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

And Sex Matters commentary on it.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/support-for-gender-neutral-toilets-falls/

It is a small minority of people actually believe that a male person can be a female person. It is a minority of people who believe that female people should not have access to female single sex spaces where all male people over about 8 years old are excluded. And it is minority of people who believe that any male people who have a body that has experienced any male puberty should be playing in female sports categories (this just reflects where the sporting bodies are headed with their policies and regulations at this time).

And it is also becoming clearer and clearer that a male who has had their testes removed is still a male and still should be excluded.

TheKeatingFive · 23/02/2025 12:40

sashh · 23/02/2025 12:21

I honestly hope you never need the services of a rape crisis centre, when a man in a dress insists on being in your 'single sex' counselling.

I hope you are never imprisoned and locked into a small room with a totally intact male who has only identified as a woman since his rape conviction.

You are obviously beyond college age so any sports scholarship you might have obtained has not gone to a man.

Or like Reilly Gains and her team be forced to be naked in front of a 6 ft naked man who is clearly aroused by the naked women around him.

I hope you never need intimate personal care from someone the same sex.

I hope you never have to share a hospital ward / room with a biological male.

I hope you are never raped or attacked by a male who claims to be female because these are all things happening to women and girls and you are supporting it.

The thing is, posters like the one in question are almost always coming from a place of unacknowledged privilege.

They can't see any of that happening to them. They can't conceive of themselves in prison.

They may not be so immune to rape/domestic abuse/hospitalisation, but they imagine they'd be able to access alternative provision (though money or connections) if it happened to them.

They know nothing about competitive sport.

They simply do not care about these women - who are the ones suffering due to this ideology. In fact, their predicament may not have even crossed their privileged minds.

So they go out to bat for the men instead 🙄

dapsnotplimsolls · 23/02/2025 12:47

I think there are still far too many people who don't realise that the percentage of TW who've had their penis removed is minuscule.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2025 12:49

And yes, this movement that the OP refers to does incorporate the majority of the world’s population.

Here are more yougov polls.

Every two years more and more of the population of the UK understand exactly what it now means to allow any male to access female single sex provisions.

It's so encouraging that more and more people are waking up to the misogynistic, reality denying truth of it.