To not give my teen DD medication

[Foxjonessssss]

My 15 yr old DD has ASD and OCD, both diagnosed by CAMHS who she is under. She is brilliant in every way and manages so well. She is in grammar school doing really well academically but struggles in other ways. The school are great and really help her.

She has had therapy via CAMHS and through school but still struggles with intrusive thoughts.

CAMHS consultant has said it’s now time to start medication. I have really wanted to avoid this for her. I don’t want her on medication that has side effects and she may be reliant on. DD doesn’t mind either way.

I just think she has done so well with everything without medication I wish she didn’t need it ☹️

AIBU if I don’t accept the medication for her?

Most trauma responses you do not notice so you ignore most and only focus on the ones that cause you discomfort and basically dope them so that person can be within society and not cause discomfort to others.
So one of the most common trauma responses is overworking and people pleasing. They are often celebrated and not once have I seen anyone being doped for people pleasing or working hard. They are largely ignored despite it causing issues within their lives because it doesn't make society uncomfortable. It also limits them socially and within their work or within their family life etc. So someone barely able to function because of overwork and you do what? Ignore it! Every single time!

So... because SOME mental health issues are not specifically and sufficiently managed, we should stop supporting ALL mental health issues? Sure, that makes sense.

What you mean is you focus on those behaviours that you seem as problematic to society and you and say that you treat things that impact on you and tart it up as being for them all the while ignoring most responses because they are not problematic to you but to the individual but that doesn't matter? Right?

I don't fully understand what you're saying here, but I think you're saying that it's only things that are problematic to society and that we're "tarting it up" to be about for them? I guess there are times that's true - eg when someone's behaviour is disruptive or whatever. But I think your own trauma is blinding you to the reality here. People with severe depression or OCD want meds because it allows them to do the things they love, spend time with their loved ones etc.

I've been there and nope not been a fan of the meds as there is no need for them so nope you are wrong and no I will not be a fan of them if I see it. I see it day in day out I have lived it and nope never will be a fan of using medication untested for something that has not been proven to be needed.
Fine, you don't have to use medication but your claims that meds are untested is just bollocks. There's no other way to put it. It's bollocks. lots and lots of meds have long history and lots and lots of data on efficacy and long term benefits vs side effects. You don't have to believe it, I can't force you, but it is true.

Understanding what is causing them pain and not ignoring them would do better.
Well, again, sure, lots of people have agreed that many conditions need meds to be alongside other therapies to try to get to the bottom of things. Just like paracetomol allows the body to reduce the pain so that it can focus on healing.

Paracetamol deals with something within the body that is a problem - nerves causing pain through being exposed or trapped or damaged etc. You actually don't understand how pain inhibitors work. They literally inhibit the brain from feeling the pain - they don't actually STOP the pain or repair the damage. They jsut encourge yoru brain not to notice it so much.

What is incoherent about saying using stigma is wrong? Or are you trying to label me as mental there - the irony proving it is just stigma when someone doesn't behave as 'all others do'?! ha ha! Comply or be labelled mental! Yes?
You arguments are often incorehent yes. Including the fact that you think being incoherent means I'm calling you "mental". What a rude, offensive term for anyone who may be struggling and certainly, it's not a word I would ever use. If I was to use it, I wouldn't use it to describe someone who doesn't seem to understand certain realities of medical science and healthcare.

People can disagree but you're making sweeping assumptions that medications are not needed for severe MH issues and do not help. I'm speaking from personal experience that they have saved someone life, no amount of therapy, talking could reframe things, now they manage a pretty regular life.
That's my experience.
No doubt you're anti vac

@Foxjonessssss

i think this thread has gotten somewhat side tracked but I think you need to take from this

1. your role is not to decide but to help your DD make an informed decision as it is her choice. Give her the tools and confidence to decide
2. Think about whether you could do with talking to someone - I get the impression you are still slightly and understandably in denial about what your daughter is dealing with
3. CAmHS do not see medication as a first line choice of dealing with it - to get to the point they are recommending it means the therapies have not been working as well as they would like
4. intrusive thoughts are not something that you should learn to deal with or manage if there is a possiblity they can do

good luck

I do not aim to change opinions. I aim to give mine as the OP asked for it and I have said numerous times people are entitled to believe in different models. I do not believe it is ok to get personal about someone that believes something different and in that respect I will challenge disrespect and name calling each time. If people then ask me questions and call me names and mislabel me (the irony is lost on them) then I will then respond which one would think that being called names on here I would challenge that. It isn't about changing opinions. It is debating. I have said time and time again others have a right to believe in other models yet others have said I have no right to believe in the model I believe in - the one that removes stigma.

Debate is just this - sharing differing opinions. However some people get personal and I have a right to respond to that.

Out of curiosity - What did those who I have debated with say when you said this to them?

Just because we don’t understand the biological mechanisms involved in mental illness doesn’t mean there aren’t any.

The biological mechanisms underpinning childhood acute lymphoblastic leukaemia weren’t understood when Sidney Farber ran clinical trials of folate antagonists in his patients, which many scientists and doctors opposed. When patients went into remission, it wasn’t fully understood why. He went on to refine this treatment and saved countless children’s lives. He is considered the father of modern chemotherapy.

Anticonvulsants were found to be an effective treatment for epilepsy long before we had scans to detect it. It’s still not fully understood how they work.

Many treatments for diseases where the underlying physiological mechanisms are now clear began as trial and error, when the causes of the diseases were unclear. How patients respond to treatments in clinical trials can further our understanding and therefore bring us a step closer to pinning down the cause.

The brain is an extremely complex organ and cognition involves highly intricate interplay between myriad neurons, neurotransmitters, brain regions and hemispheres. We don’t yet have the technology to understand this.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

So ones that are not managed like overworking is overlooked because.....?

I've not once said stop supporting I have said support. You are incorrect in saying so about me.

Nope there is nothing about my trauma here in relation to this - again labelling me and my trauma as being a problem is ironic! Show how you can label someone and use stigma without any testing! Highlights my point perfectly, thank you!

What 'conditions'? You mean people labelled as abnormal?

I do know how they work I was talking about the biology of the root cause of the pain.

You use mental and stigma all the time - it is rude to use stigma which you do and yet you feel it is ok to label people abnormal.

By all means tell me the medical science of something the creators admit there is no science behind. Someone who doesn't understand the history of the field or how it came to be is not wrong for using terms that you find offensive but they are terms that I do not use but have taken from society - I can use your term and call everyone abnormal which I think is awful so tend not to use it. The whole field is about calling people abnormal and you support that then say it is not wrong to call people abnormal?

I think it is. I am using societies terms not mine. I do not think any terms are needed! I am using terms used that society uses against those who are distressed. If you find that offensive then that is what you support. They are not the words I use in life. I do not label. I do not think anyone is 'mental' or 'mentally ill' or 'abnormal' to use the words from here.

I think it is normal. Mental health is normal. To suggest it is abnormal is not my cup of tea, however just because you think something different doesn't mean it is incoherent. It means you believe in one thing and I believe in another.

You believe in stigma. I do not. Simple.

I've said this to you because you seem upset and angry. I agree that debate is a good and healthy thing, but if it starts to upset you, then step back. I was actually looking out for you, not defending either stance.

@whippy1981 but you are the only
one stigmatising mental health by saying there is no chemical or biological cause and saying you cannot take medication

we shouldn’t be normalising the idea of having to cope with mental health issues which forgive me if I am wrong with what you are saying but that is what is coming across. That mental health issues are so normal we should just shut up and cope.

The people who make the medical manual who actually review the labels say there are none. They are putting it into a book saying there is no evidence of any biology yet we can use biology to treat something we have no proof of existing in the body yet?

With leukemia we have tests to prove that someone has it. Being distressed is not a disease.

Completely agree that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but how can we say these things exist - all 500+ of them without one bit of evidence that any of them exist? Not one test. To me something is fishy there and given the history that shows where all these labels came from also needs to be remembered.

All built on stigma. I mean why does black man's disorder exist? I'd love to know the science behind that one! Or wandering womb? I mean the fact that being gay was considered a mental health condition at one point - with no proof but they were 'treated' because that is what we do when someone is mentally ill, right? We 'treat them' to make them more socially acceptable and fit into society not look at what in society is causing them distress.

The field is built on racism, homophobia, classism, misogyny and oppression and all the labels have come from these. All of them.

Nope I am not. I am the one not using stigma. The minute you label is the minute you use stigma. I didn't say you cannot take medication. I said there is no need to. The studies have shown there is no chemical cause or biological.

Saying I do not use the word abnormal like everyone else is me using stigma - how come?

You call them abnormal when you label.

It is normal so why are you saying they are abnormal? I never said shut up and cope, those are your words not mine. I never mentioned coping. Not once. You are now showing you do not understand my point as I have never mentioned that.

So you are wrong in saying that as you have read that wrong.

@whippy1981
With respect, I don't think this is the place to air your view that mental ill health does not exist. It doesn't matter whether you are right or wrong, if you want a theoretical discussion then start a thread for that. This prolonged side-debate is rderailing the OP's concerns. You have experessed a view, she can consider that view. Arguing it back and forth adds nothing to the thread.

Medication to treat OCD and anxiety (I’m talking about Sertraline)in teenagers isn’t prescribed for nothing. My experience has been that camhs treatment failed to improve our child’s OCD (which was absolutely debilitating), but the prescribed meds worked very quickly very well. It made a huge difference. It’s not something you do lightly so I understand how you feel - if the meds don’t suit her they can be stopped.

To be honest @whippy1981 I have lost track of what yiur point is

what I do know is it it incredibly unhelpful on a thread where a mother is asking for advice

Thank you all for your responses. We are going to give it ago because if anything helps her then I will do it.

DD doesn’t have depression or anxiety. The medication considered is Sertraline and lots of people here have said it has helped them or their child so I have to have some faith in that.

But you keep saying things that aren't true?

I've never referred to stigma. I've never called you mental.

"Creators" (assumign you mean the pharmaceutical companies who create and distribute medicines) simply do NOT say that there's no science behind these drugs.

I'm not engaging with you any more. I don't think it's helpful.

OP - good luck with trying medication. I really hope your DD gets some relief.

@Foxjonessssss that sounds really positive, I hope it's helpful for your DD.

@whippy1981 I'm curious why you think the idea of biological factors are stigmatising? I personally find the assumption of 'trauma' more stigmatising. Traumatic and adverse experiences are of course a factor or a trigger for many psychological difficulties and mental illnesses, but it isn't always the case. Years ago I was taken in by the then popular (and still popular to an extent) idea that if you had psychological problems but didn't know why, something must have happened to you that you have repressed. It did a huge amount of damage to me and many other people.

I had a friend who was very interested in 'trauma' (I use inverted commas because the word has lost all meaning in my opinion) and read a lot of pop psychology books and would speculate as to the cause of someone's depression or OCD or whatever. She'd say things like 'it must have been sexual abuse', which is frankly just vile.

I agree with you regarding the idea that antidepressants correct a 'chemical imbalance', and the hypothesis has been peddled as fact for far too long. I also agree that it is not comparable to a diabetic needing insulin. But equally I feel the idea of mental ill health being the result of some deep-rooted trauma in every or most cases is also wrong, and has helped to create a $2.5bn therapy industry as of 2023 which is projected to rise to $40bn by 2033 https://www.thebrainyinsights.com/report/emotional-counseling-service-market-14387#:~:text=Market%20Introduction,USD%2040.15%20billion%20by%202033 Yet the incidence of depression and anxiety continues to follow an upward trend and has more than doubled in 16-24 year olds in the UK since 2000 https://www.ucl.ac.uk/psychiatry/news/2023/sep/changes-depression-anxiety-and-stress-over-two-decades

In my opinion the general upward trajectory of depression and anxiety is fuelled by the decline of social infrastructure and an increasingly sick society, and medication and introspection are not efficient means of tackling that. However, I don't believe the same is true in all cases of depression and anxiety or in all cases of other mental disorders. I believe that biological factors underpin, predispose or otherwise play a large part in many cases and certain medications and treatments are capable of greatly improving symptoms for some people. I don't think it helps that depression and anxiety have become catch all phrases to describe periods of low mood and worry. There is a gulf between a person who comes away from a GP appointment with a diagnosis of depression and a prescription for citalopram and gets on with their life, and a person with severe, treatment-resistant depression who cannot function or even speak and has to be hospitalised. I would argue that the two are not the same illness. For the latter, 40-50% treated with ECT go into full remission following treatment, which to me suggests a strong neurobiological component.

I think everyone can understand this. No one wants their child to face more adversity and there will be parts of DD’s personality which she will view as a positive which are there because of her autism. I think as a parent it’s difficult to acknowledge the extent that their children, especially girls with autism, are working hard to just tread water to get through day to day.

Why does the camhs team feel now is the right time to start them?

Are medical staff involved with the prescribing them, monitoring them and knowing if they are the right approach?

If the medics have deemed it worth trying medication I think you owe it to her to try them.

It's not a failing in you or her that she may need medication to help her feel better.

Would you feel the same if she had a physical condition which required medication to let her live a better life?

She asked for advice and I offered it, then everyone who disagreed then decided to make comments to which I responded. If you feel it is unhelpful then do not comment on those you disagree with and engage with them, ignore and continue.

Thank you.

Yes you have. When you label you use stigma.

Nope not pharmaceutical companies. The people who 'found' the illness. The ones who discovered all 500 existed with no science to say this is what we have found. The same people who admit they ignored the illnesses they 'found' and didn't include them in the diagnostic manual as they were ones they could get labelled as having.

I don't feel it is helpful in you using stigma against me or others so I welcome you not commenting any more. If you wish all to agree with you I also advice not to debate any longer with anyone. It would be most helpful for you.

I didn't say anything about biological factors being stigmatising sorry you have misunderstood.

Your friend misunderstood what trauma is then as it isn't always one big event.

I do not believe any mental health conditions are a result of trauma. I believe they are all from stigma.

What do you believe on the history and what do you think about things like black man's disorder and wandering womb?

Why the upward trend on cases? Snow-plough parents and an increasingly oppressive and abusive world. Back in 2000 16-24 year olds didn't have the world of the internet on their devices or in fact phones were just starting to be a thing. Now 16-24 year olds are bullied online, harassed, sexually harassed, groomed, abused and are addicted to things such as online porn etc. The society in which they live is different and much more abusive than it was. So it stands to reason that combined with their inability to deal with minor set backs and then an ever abusive world no wonder it increases. Kids cry and wail if their phone is taken off them and cannot cope without it for longer than 5 minutes calling it abuse if a teacher asks them to put it away.

By all means you have the right to believe what you want. Treatment-resistant depression? You mean that the meds given do nothing and so the person is labelled as the problem again and told to top themselves not the medication that is doing nothing! I disagree that it exists. Like giving someone antibiotics for something but the antibiotics do not treat that illness so they say the illness is the problem not that the meds do naff all. I'd label it wrong support.

As someone who has worked with hundreds neurodivergent young people, getting medication right is often life changing. Medication can be the difference between a young person being anxiously isolated away from community and being an active part of the community or being violently heightened when anxious and being more resilient. Often it takes number of medical reviews to get medication right.

So the rule is to all agree and do not respond to those who label you and use stigma and name call. All must agree and no debating.

Righto! I'll ask for your advice on what to say in each thread if that is ok?

Or you could tell others that they shouldn't be labelling or name calling me and they should respect other's opinions differ and that is the nature of debate?

If others struggle to accept that opinions differ that is not my issue and I shouldn't be told what to do because others disagree and wish to use stigma against others.