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To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

1000 replies

SunnyDayInFeb · 17/02/2025 08:58

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
wholettheturnipsburn · 20/02/2025 16:55

RingoJuice · 20/02/2025 16:13

JD Vance just tweeted this, I think it’s a good summary of the US position and I 1000% agree with it:

This is moralistic garbage, which is unfortunately the rhetorical currency of the globalists because they have nothing else to say.

For three years, President Trump and I have made two simple arguments: first, the war wouldn't have started if President Trump was in office; second, that neither Europe, nor the Biden administration, nor the Ukrainians had any pathway to victory. This was true three years ago, it was true two years ago, it was true last year, and it is true today.

And for three years, the concerns of people who were obviously right were ignored. What is Niall's actual plan for Ukraine? Another aid package? Is he aware of the reality on the ground, of the numerical advantage of the Russians, of the depleted stock of the Europeans or their even more depleted industrial base?

Instead, he quotes from a book about George HW Bush from a different historical period and a different conflict. That's another currency of these people: reliance on irrelevant history.

President Trump is dealing with reality, which means dealing with facts. And here are some facts:

Number one, while our Western European allies' security has benefitted greatly from the generosity of the United States, they pursue domestic policies (on migration and censorship) that offend the sensibilities of most Americans and defense policies that assume continued over-reliance.

Number two, Russians have a massive numerical advantage in manpower and weapons in Ukraine, and that advantage will persist regardless of further Western aid packages. Again, the aid is currently flowing.

Number three, the United States retains substantial leverage over both parties to the conflict.

Number four, ending the conflict requires talking to the people involved in starting it and maintaining it.

Number five, the conflict has placed - and continues to place - stress on tools of American statecraft, from military stockpiles to sanctions (and so much else). We believe the continued conflict is bad for Russia, bad for Ukraine, and bad for Europe. But most importantly, it is bad for the United States.

Given the above facts, we must pursue peace, and we must pursue it now. President Trump ran on this, he won on this, and he is right about this. It is lazy, ahistorical nonsense to attack as "appeasement" every acknowledgment that America's interest must account for the realities of the conflict.

That interest - not moralisms or historical illiteracy - will guide President Trump's policy in the weeks to come.

And thank God for that.

https://x.com/jdvance/status/1892569791140946073?s=46&t=LHu5hEVEgoG4lIIfMesJGA

I got as far as the part about trump dealing with facts then I knew it was shite

whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey · 20/02/2025 16:56


, the war wouldn't have started if President Trump was in office
How is this a fact ?

Alaimo · 20/02/2025 16:57

NotTerfNorCis · 20/02/2025 16:46

first, the war wouldn't have started if President Trump was in office

They keep repeating that, but what grounds do they have for thinking it? Trump rolls over to whatever Putin wants. He wouldn't have done anything to stop Putin; in fact he probably would have made an invasion more likely!

The war might not have started because Trump would have just told the Ukrainians from the beginning to give all/substantial parts of their country to Russia.

NotTerfNorCis · 20/02/2025 17:02

The war might not have started because Trump would have just told the Ukrainians from the beginning to give all/substantial parts of their country to Russia.

It's pretty obvious Ukraine wouldn't have gone along with that.

Catsandcheese · 20/02/2025 17:41

wholettheturnipsburn · 20/02/2025 16:55

I got as far as the part about trump dealing with facts then I knew it was shite

Absolutely correct.
Trump does not deal in facts. If he did he would have known that Ukraine did not start the war.

Abhannmor · 20/02/2025 19:11

One side effect of the latest idiocy is that it puts Reform on the spot. Farage doesn't know how to decouple from Trump - despite Musk insulting him and nominating Yaxley Lennon as the next Prime Minister of the UK. There may be some English nationalists who don't mind being treated as serfs in the new American empire. But not that many surely?

I was just reading a Metro piece about Farage calling for elections in Ukraine. He was getting destroyed in the comments fwiw.

bombastix · 20/02/2025 19:19

Most British people are repelled by Trump's approach. They know what it means.

Reform voters appear to be a conspicuous exception to Ukraine being free to determine its own path.

A faraway country, Ukraine

sleepwouldbenice · 20/02/2025 19:32

RingoJuice · 20/02/2025 16:13

JD Vance just tweeted this, I think it’s a good summary of the US position and I 1000% agree with it:

This is moralistic garbage, which is unfortunately the rhetorical currency of the globalists because they have nothing else to say.

For three years, President Trump and I have made two simple arguments: first, the war wouldn't have started if President Trump was in office; second, that neither Europe, nor the Biden administration, nor the Ukrainians had any pathway to victory. This was true three years ago, it was true two years ago, it was true last year, and it is true today.

And for three years, the concerns of people who were obviously right were ignored. What is Niall's actual plan for Ukraine? Another aid package? Is he aware of the reality on the ground, of the numerical advantage of the Russians, of the depleted stock of the Europeans or their even more depleted industrial base?

Instead, he quotes from a book about George HW Bush from a different historical period and a different conflict. That's another currency of these people: reliance on irrelevant history.

President Trump is dealing with reality, which means dealing with facts. And here are some facts:

Number one, while our Western European allies' security has benefitted greatly from the generosity of the United States, they pursue domestic policies (on migration and censorship) that offend the sensibilities of most Americans and defense policies that assume continued over-reliance.

Number two, Russians have a massive numerical advantage in manpower and weapons in Ukraine, and that advantage will persist regardless of further Western aid packages. Again, the aid is currently flowing.

Number three, the United States retains substantial leverage over both parties to the conflict.

Number four, ending the conflict requires talking to the people involved in starting it and maintaining it.

Number five, the conflict has placed - and continues to place - stress on tools of American statecraft, from military stockpiles to sanctions (and so much else). We believe the continued conflict is bad for Russia, bad for Ukraine, and bad for Europe. But most importantly, it is bad for the United States.

Given the above facts, we must pursue peace, and we must pursue it now. President Trump ran on this, he won on this, and he is right about this. It is lazy, ahistorical nonsense to attack as "appeasement" every acknowledgment that America's interest must account for the realities of the conflict.

That interest - not moralisms or historical illiteracy - will guide President Trump's policy in the weeks to come.

And thank God for that.

https://x.com/jdvance/status/1892569791140946073?s=46&t=LHu5hEVEgoG4lIIfMesJGA

100%
Typical exaggeration
Of course you do
And it's capitulation not appeasement

Llttledrummergirl · 20/02/2025 19:46

JD Vance is a nob. Point 1 is all shit and it gets worse from there.

SunnyDayInFeb · 20/02/2025 19:49

Llttledrummergirl · 20/02/2025 19:46

JD Vance is a nob. Point 1 is all shit and it gets worse from there.

I mean why would he care what policy European countries have on migration? What on earth has that got to do with anything?

OP posts:
bigvig · 20/02/2025 19:51

Well OP get signed up and get yourself over to the Ukraine then!

OneLemonDog · 20/02/2025 20:01

JD Vance is such an irredeemable gobshite. As most know, he previously called Trump "America's Hitler" and, as Trump has become more extreme (and, let's face it, evil), JD has thrown his lot in with them and is giving full throated support to Neo Nazi parties (which seems to be the gist of US foreign policy these days).

Still, though, the world is probably stuck with these arseholes for the foreseeable. Even if they run the American economy into the ground, or just generally lose public support, I doubt the US will have free and fair elections in 2028.

sleepwouldbenice · 20/02/2025 20:15

Llttledrummergirl · 20/02/2025 19:46

JD Vance is a nob. Point 1 is all shit and it gets worse from there.

Agreed
I mean seriously, America comments on democracy and domestic policies in other countries? Has it seen the state of itself.

He only makes these comments to play to his supporters at home. They lap it up under the illusion that we will realise what a saviour USA is for us alll.....

SunnyDayInFeb · 20/02/2025 20:27

During Thursday’s press briefing, US national security adviser Michael Waltz accused Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy of failing to ‘come to the table’ and take ‘opportunity’ of a Donald Trump-brokered peace plan

I don't know if Waltz thinks the world has already forgotten the things the US said and did yesterday. But the whole point is that they didn't invite Zelenskyy to the table (hence this thread)

OP posts:
Llttledrummergirl · 20/02/2025 20:44

They really are making shit up as they go along.

sleepwouldbenice · 20/02/2025 20:45

SunnyDayInFeb · 20/02/2025 20:27

During Thursday’s press briefing, US national security adviser Michael Waltz accused Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy of failing to ‘come to the table’ and take ‘opportunity’ of a Donald Trump-brokered peace plan

I don't know if Waltz thinks the world has already forgotten the things the US said and did yesterday. But the whole point is that they didn't invite Zelenskyy to the table (hence this thread)

I think they just mean the little table so that they can see what scraps might be thrown at him

And of cause be so ever grateful to the Americans for all they have done....Confused

wholettheturnipsburn · 20/02/2025 22:10

bigvig · 20/02/2025 19:51

Well OP get signed up and get yourself over to the Ukraine then!

🥱🥱 zzzzzz

DdraigGoch · 20/02/2025 22:33

Catsandcheese · 20/02/2025 17:41

Absolutely correct.
Trump does not deal in facts. If he did he would have known that Ukraine did not start the war.

Oh he knows it. He's just happy to tell blatant lies.

Catsandcheese · 20/02/2025 22:54

I think he knows the audience that matters to him is back home in the good old USA, the people who voted for him. Same with Vance tbh.
They don't want to keep funding Ukraine, they want the immigrants out of the US ( the irony!) and they don't believe any truth except what comes out of their master's mouth.
He calls Zelensky a dictator, he says Ukraine started the war, and they just suck it up. Trump said it, so it must be true.

RingoJuice · 21/02/2025 03:33

Catsandcheese · 20/02/2025 22:54

I think he knows the audience that matters to him is back home in the good old USA, the people who voted for him. Same with Vance tbh.
They don't want to keep funding Ukraine, they want the immigrants out of the US ( the irony!) and they don't believe any truth except what comes out of their master's mouth.
He calls Zelensky a dictator, he says Ukraine started the war, and they just suck it up. Trump said it, so it must be true.

We are actually dealing with our illegal immigrants right now. What are you doing about the problem?

SunnyDayInFeb · 21/02/2025 06:08

I actually can't believe that Zelensky hasn't had a mental breakdown under the strain yet. All these years of effort and toil and struggle and Ukraine is trapped in an impossible situation between the evil Russians and US and the ineffectual Europeans and Brits.

I do not think the Russians will rest until they have assasinated him either. If they get his family too they will consider that a bonus. All the better to warn off the next person that tries to stand up to them.

Whilst I am sure Zelensky has many flaws, he exemplifies courage, resilience and patriotism. He is no pyschopath either, you can see the pain when he talks about victims of the Russian bombings or dead soldiers.

I think for Putin, Trump and Musk their hatred of Zelensky is very personal as he shines a light to their inadequacies. Hence the constant need to denigrate, belittle and ridicule him.

OP posts:
Deedeesharpwhatkindoflady · 21/02/2025 06:17

Catsandcheese · 20/02/2025 17:41

Absolutely correct.
Trump does not deal in facts. If he did he would have known that Ukraine did not start the war.

Any utterance from Trump is absolute shit.
Stating that Zelensky is a dictator was a new level of shit and this coming from a man who's trying to bully other countries around the world to bend to his will.

Sunbeds · 21/02/2025 07:49

It’s interesting (and scary) to think how a hostile USA will impact the world. Would tourism to and from the USA be affected if the noise coming out of the States is so anti-European - well, anti more or less everywhere? Would China decide to dump some of the US Treasury bonds if Trump squeezes Chinese imports too far and create turmoil in the financial system? Would terrorism risks in air travel to and from the USA increase (Trump is making ever more enemies in the Middle East)?
I can’t believe how fast things have changed since Christmas!

mommyfinger · 21/02/2025 08:16

So it's said trump wants £500 billion in mineral wealth from Ukraine to repay Washington for wartime aid. What a cunt.

Deedeesharpwhatkindoflady · 21/02/2025 08:17

Trump second time round was always going to be about settling scores real or imagined.

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