State school 6th forms oversubscribed

[LordGiveMeStrength]

AIBU to be concerned about the impact the new VAT on private schools will have on state school 6th forms?

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools.

Issues I see:

1. kids who have been at the local state secondary school since year 7 have been told their space in the 6th form is not guaranteed and if they don’t get as high GCSE results as other potential pupils they will not have a spot. The nearest private schools have amazing GCSE results so very likely to displace existing students to other state school options a far distance from their homes.
2. infrastructure - the local school is already heaving so accommodating a huge influx is not possible, buildings are already crumbling and it will take a long time before investment actually happens to improve the facilities.
3. false economy- currently kids in private schools don’t cost the government to be educated. Government’s plans are that money raised from VAT will pay for additional teachers (but I don’t see that happening immediately). If lots of private schools kids move to the state system not only will government not collect that VAT, but they will all be liable for educating pupils who previously were in the private sector. I believe the current cost from central government to educate in 6th form is £5k with additional payments for more academic subjects (eg further maths A level pupils will equal an additional £900 per pupil per year in the state schools). Apologies if these sums aren’t correct.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-vat-state-sixth-forms-3473062?srsltid=AfmBOopXOi5842QMq-qO1NqHGR9g9-4BOi6Gc0v_dlhBbFBTMmU5Prsi

Most of these posters clearly haven’t got this point at all from the thread, though. Lots posting that there is no impact near them or it won’t happen or whatever.

There won’t be an impact until the next admissions round, but however much individual posters say there won’t be an effect near them, the reality is that a) it’s the impact overall that will matter; b) it won’t be until the end of the year that it’s evident or not.

If overall, say, 20% of kids that would have gone into private sixth forms switch to state, then it will have an effect on state school sixth form admissions. None of the sixth forms in my LEA hold places for existing students or have a priority for state students — it’s competitive admission by GCSE results, so if there is a substantial switch to state, then it will affect existing students in the state sector. Schools in my LEA are also currently very oversubscribed in the 10-19 age range. Some local authorities may not be in that position, but plenty are.

Also, the idea that if there are undersubscribed subjects in some A-level courses you can just add some extra pupils, because then they won’t cost anything more, is just laughable. Many posters on this thread seem to have no idea about how schools and sixth forms are run and funded.

Seriously?

I am pointing out that parents are rightly concerned that if their child has a blip on the day and gets an 8 instead of a 9 then they will not get the 6th form place.

You stepson might well have found that he should have got off his backside and done some work when his 8s weren't good enough.

And why should I have a low opinion of state school children? My DD is one.

Schools tend to prioritise their own yr 11s as we have to report to the government which destinations they go to post 16 and are penalised if we have NEETs ( not in education, employment or training) so it shouldn't have massive impact on students currently in state schools. We have always had a big influx from the local private at sixth form when parents realise that they don't necessarily get value for money for A levels at private school. In our case our results are very similar and some years better than our nearest private. State schools also get fairly well funded for post 16 so often sixth forms are subsidising the rest of the school.

How competitive is the bar at your 6th form though?

Right, but what’s the point of the policy if it doesn’t make any money?

Yet again as on all of these threads, posters say it won’t make any difference, and then they say, well it’s a good thing anyway if more kids shift to state.

How is it a good thing if the education funding available per pupil actually goes down, plus lots of schools go bust making local people who work in them redundant? How is that a win for anyone? More stretched state schools and a bit more unnecessary unemployment? Doesn’t sound like a result to me?

The only rationale for the VAT policy is that it will make money. That’s what the govt has sold it on. If it doesn’t make any money, the state system gets even more stretched but the remaining students in the private sector get an even bigger advantage, isn’t that just a massive own goal? How could it be anything but? It only works if private school pupils don’t switch!

The pleasant fantasy that a lot of sharp-elbowed former private school parents will change the local state school for the better is just that, a stupid fantasy. a) Are the existing state parents just too useless to advocate for their DC? That’s a silly idea to start with! And b) even if this idea worked, all these new parents will just be advocating for their DC over yours. Now their DC appear in your kids’ schools and get all the music lessons, and the enrichment trips, and the best roles in plays and the head girl posts and the top grades, instead of your kids 🤣

I think some private school posters on here are a little naive and arrogant as regards state pupil
grades.

Hate to break it to you but music lessons,enrichment trips etc are meaningless in UCAS applications. Most parents I know don’t give a shit about any of it.

Parents won’t care if the opportunities available to their kids suddenly get taken by a load of ex-private school pupils instead?

Parents won’t care if their kid’s school suddenly is more stretched, and there is extra competition for resources from a lot of new kids who are already well-trained in academic, music and extracurricular achievements?

Ah, silly me, why is anyone bothered then? 🤣

If overall private school pupils’ grades aren’t better, then why is the government and everyone else so keen to tax them?

The school in their admissions info.

The minimum ask is 6 x 9-7 incl English and Maths. In the event of oversubscription (it is very oversubscribed) then they rank candidates in order of grades. So the places go to the highest scoring - basically if you are not on track for a clean sweep of 9s then you're unlikely to get a place.

Yes there will be lots of state candidates who will score those kind of results. But there will now also be a lot of private school candidates and locally the private schools are the very highly selective variety.

No they really won’t. All I cared about during the Alevel years was that my kids were off their phones, studying, keeping up with homework, sorting UCAS and managing to enjoy life too. The stuff you listed is not anything I’d give a second thought about. Sooo wouldn’t have been crying into my pillow re who was given “head hirl”!🤣

Ah well — why do you care if the government sells you a policy that is counterproductive for the state sector anyway then? Is it just about sticking it to the 20% of less wealthy kids in private who will have to move into state? Because who cares about kids’ education anyway, amirite?

It’s a good policy. Any extra money is good for state education. Only a tiny number of kids are privately educated and only a tiny number of them will be going into the state sector. Numbers are falling in the state sector and extra bums on seats will be a good thing. Private education is a luxury,if you want it you make proper contingency plans. Any parents who haven’t only have themselves to blame if they are now in the same boat as everybody else- unable to afford private education.

It is what is. It's dome now so that's it. It will play out however it plays out. Like it or not lots of people will zero skin in the game are really enjoying this.

I live near an 6th form college that students travel over 20 miles to get into so there is capacity locally at 6th form.

This is financial fantasy though. The parents of the private school kids already fund the state sector, so the more that go back in, the less money per head in the state sector.

Only a small margin of kids need to switch/not go to make the VAT policy a net cost to the taxpayer. At my DD’s school, applications were down nearly 50% this year. This won’t feed through until September, but likely will outweigh the amount the VAT raises. We’re in an LEA, like many in the south of England, where there are no state places available. Do you think this is going to be an excellent policy? It’s counterproductive, poorly costed and badly administered.

I’m sure you can explain to the admin staff and dinner ladies at the small preps that will close that it’s a really great win against the toffs though. 👍

Most sixth forms attached to schools have very small class sizes so could easily squeeze a few more in.

You think that doesn’t cost any money?

Some private school pupils have always switched. I don't believe that 20% more will switch as a result of VAT and it won't have an impact on state school pupils in the vast majority of areas. Birth rates are decreasing and most sixth forms want more pupils.

What is the evidence on whether state-funded sixth forms can accommodate an additional class or classes? My child’s state sixth form and putative sixth form for the younger one, probably could. They are up to their PAN but not up their physical capacity and more students mean more money …

Which LEA has no state places? Most privately educated kids aren’t going anywhere. If you can’t afford it you can’t afford it. Private schools are businesses and preps closing are the same as other business .Small preps were under pressure long before vat.

Not much more money to increase class sizes.

I was at school in the last century. Several young women and men moved from a private school to a state 6th form. I know of several who have done so more recently.

Nothing new, and to blame or be concerned about it because of this government is exaggeration of the possible impact.

No, no need to worry.

Many sixth forms, including locally, are having to merge across schools as numbers are so low.

More pupils are a real bonus.

Right - this is all just your view, then - no actual evidence?

Plenty of LEAs in the SE don’t have enough state school places.

Exactly jana. It’s very sweet that the private school parents are so concerned about the impact of their kids joining the state sector but sleep soundly absolutely no issues here anyway!