State school 6th forms oversubscribed

[LordGiveMeStrength]

AIBU to be concerned about the impact the new VAT on private schools will have on state school 6th forms?

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools.

Issues I see:

1. kids who have been at the local state secondary school since year 7 have been told their space in the 6th form is not guaranteed and if they don’t get as high GCSE results as other potential pupils they will not have a spot. The nearest private schools have amazing GCSE results so very likely to displace existing students to other state school options a far distance from their homes.
2. infrastructure - the local school is already heaving so accommodating a huge influx is not possible, buildings are already crumbling and it will take a long time before investment actually happens to improve the facilities.
3. false economy- currently kids in private schools don’t cost the government to be educated. Government’s plans are that money raised from VAT will pay for additional teachers (but I don’t see that happening immediately). If lots of private schools kids move to the state system not only will government not collect that VAT, but they will all be liable for educating pupils who previously were in the private sector. I believe the current cost from central government to educate in 6th form is £5k with additional payments for more academic subjects (eg further maths A level pupils will equal an additional £900 per pupil per year in the state schools). Apologies if these sums aren’t correct.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-vat-state-sixth-forms-3473062?srsltid=AfmBOopXOi5842QMq-qO1NqHGR9g9-4BOi6Gc0v_dlhBbFBTMmU5Prsi

Not all state schools though.

@PocketSand Are you saying 6th form admissions have preferred subjects at GCSE and admit if the dc applying shine at maths but turn away others with 7/8 grades in other subjects? That’s unfair and I’ve never seen that. Dc can be good at a range of subjects and get into a 6th form based on arts subjects as well as sciences.

Hasn't this always happened? 16 years ago I was at a very sought after sixth form and a shit load of kids came from private schools

I went to private school, and it was always a well established requirement to achieve minimum grades to secure a 6th form place.

I chose to go to a different private school for 6th form as they offered a better engineering route, as was my right really.

But the point I'm making is that there have always been people leaving 6th form in private schools in favour of colleges or specialist 6th form providers. Often the range of subjects is more limited at a private 6th, which can be a big driver. I don't especially see it being much different with the VAT rules changing.

For us the imposition of VAT has been a driver, as it spurred us on to look at alternative provision and we ended up being more than pleasantly surprised (and rather gutted that we had not chosen state earlier on!!)

shit load of kids came from private schools

Sounds like you resented them at the time?

It must be different throughout the country. I live in SE and in an area with a high number of private schools. The 6th form colleges are also excellent. One of the colleges closed applications early this year due to the high numbers. It is definitely affecting the chances of state school kids round here. Private school parents are seeing the financial advantage of a place at the excellent colleges

I am sure that they have always seen the financial advantage if the sixth form colleges have always been excellent.

@PocketSand " Then the financial input is worthwhile because merit alone is unlikely to lead to success!"

What do you mean?

Eh? Why would I resent them? Did you quote the wrong post?

All these threads prove is anecdata. I’ve been teaching for 25 years in the same region (across 3 counties) - nothing has changed for me except I have seen over populated years and falls. I would like if posters posted their regions as in my LEA we have no issues.

6th forms have adapted and changed from when I went 35 years ago, I’m sure they can do it again.
When I went everyone who was going to sixth form just went to the one in your school or in my case the one we were expected to go to (separate but next to my school). Now everyone shops about to get the choices they want and there are more qualifications available. Not everyone thinks of just going to uni now so look for other pathways.

Maybe this will be a positive with the falling birth rate and helps out a lot of places.

Why is it affecting the chances of state schools? PP , EHCPs and cared for children will always be the priority and anybody else just needs to make sure they get applications in on time. Local feeder state schools will be on it. 6th form colleges are open to anybody and you say you have several, there will also still be movement on results day.

Nothing applies to all state schools.

But there are a tiny number of students likely to flee indy education due to VAT and most state schools are doing their job properly so this attempt to whip up panic is all a bit redundant.

Schools are mostly judged on their Progress 8 figures. There is only marginal gain in trying to push your A level grades up by importing other students.

Our local state 6th form college takes on the basis of filling the gaps they have, if you're not from a feeder school. So someone wanting to do humanities will be more likely to get in than someone doing all sciences.

Because children after a top state 6th form who are external state candidates will now be competing with external private school candidates who previously may have chosen to stay in private provision.

Given the uptick in applications from children likely to be arriving with top grades (DD's comp has selective private day schools nearby) it means less possibility that school will take those who just miss getting the required grades.

I know a decent number of children last year who were turned down from schools because they just missed getting that 7 in Maths or English even when their selected A level subjects were neither.

Current Y10 and Y11 are big birth years as well.

LAC, PP and EHCP only get priority places if they hit the grade requirements. AFAIK there is no special lower ask.

Yes - various courses have a capacity but it’s not part of the admissions procedure to state openly maths is preferred over English. The GCSE scores are added up and preferred subjects considered balanced against space available.

But state school kids get great grades too and you said there were several options. Internal will have an advantage and all kids need to get the grades they need. Makes no odds where the other kids come from if you don’t get the grades needed for your course.

But this is great news. I think it will do the state system the world of good to have within it the children of wealthy, opinionated, and high achieving parents who are interested and pushing for a quality education for their offspring. It will drive up standards all round. Once those influential, well connected, interested parents have skin in the state school game there will be benefits for all the pupils at the school.

I once went to a state school performance that had been choreographed by one of the parents - a former West End choreographer. It was 100 levels above any other school show I’d ever seen. It was brilliant and the children were glowing with pride and enjoyment. Imagine all kids being able to access opportunities like that.

Example:

School A has 100 places for 6th form
60 places go to internal candidates with required grades (6 x 9-7 incl English and Maths).
40 places available for external candidates.

In 2023 there were 70 external candidates - 10 from private schools. Oversubscription ranking of grades gives those 40 places to the top 40 external.

In 2025 there are now 100 external candidates - 40 from highly selective private schools. Oversubscription ranking of grades gives out those 40 places to the top scorers.

What are the chances of external state school students v selective private school students of being those top scorers? Especially when the MINIMUM required for entry is 6 GCSES at 9-7 including English and Maths...

If you are a local state school parent hoping for that school are you going to be happy about a bigger group in the rankings, especially when almost 50% are from very selective private schools? Your chances of a place are obviously reduced.

Round here then state schools out perform the private schools at GCSE anyway

You seem to have a very low opinion of the ability of state school children. My son and his friends would all see those minimum requirements as a walk in the park. My step son got a string of 8s and 9s despite never making any noticeable effort.

Round here, you are talking about private schools with 92% of all GCSE grades being 9-7.

I have a year 11 son. Of course sixth forms are muttering darkly about having to get good results. It has always been so.

No they’re not 6 x 9-7 is not a big ask and plenty of state pupils get stellar grades. Who says they rank by grades anyway?